Abdullah al Andalusi

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The Confusion of the Quranist

A Quranist once said to me ‘We need only the Quran. The study of History tells us that everything else is merely the sayings, interpretations, memories and teaching of fallible men – including the hadith. I can interpret the Quran myself, I don’t need anything else”‘ “Really?” I said “Then follow your advice and reject…

Abdullah al Andalusi
1 minute

A Quranist once said to me ‘We need only the Quran. The study of History tells us that everything else is merely the sayings, interpretations, memories and teaching of fallible men – including the hadith. I can interpret the Quran myself, I don’t need anything else”‘

“Really?” I said “Then follow your advice and reject all knowledge of the Arabic language which the Quran needs in order for people to understand it. This is because language is preserved in lexicons, dictionaries, writings and memory all transmitted and authored by men. Likewise you must reject the very ‘history’ which caused you to come to your conclusions, for it too is ‘merely the sayings, interpretations and teaching of men’ – lastly, you must reject all of YOUR own conclusions from the Quran, since your own conclusions are merely the saying, interpretation and teaching from yourself – a fallible man”

147 responses to “The Confusion of the Quranist”

  1. Ahmed Avatar
    Ahmed

    Some one commented it on fb..

    3 good questions for them:

    1. When was the Qur’an revealed?
    2. Can meanings of words change?
    3. If so, how do you establish the intent of Allah swt words at the time of revelation?

    Kills them.

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    1. jayteem Avatar
      jayteem

      Hi Ahmed

      Peace be with you.

      1) Several ways of looking at this, since The Quran doesn’t specify when it was revealed:

      a) You could look at the history according to sirah/hadith/histories from other cultures referring to the time (this applies in the case that hadith etc. are not rejected on grounds of authenticity, merely on divine authority):

      b) You could look at the carbon dating of early manuscripts

      c) You could infer that, since God doesn’t mention the date of revelation, it is not important. Since The Quran is intended as an eternal guide, this appears probable.

      2) Yes, meanings of words can change, or indeed words can have multiple meanings. God’s actual words cannot change (hence the preservation of The Quran as He promised), but since only He knows the exact meaning of His words, you can only interpret them as best you can, using heart, logic, and seeking the best possible meaning as God exhorts you to to do, according to the time you’re living in.

      3) Since you are not living at the time of the revelation, this question is irrelevant.

      Now please, just one question in return: does The Quran contradict itself? (note, I do not hope that this question kills you, literally or otherwise).

      Many thanks

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    2. Sajjad Avatar
      Sajjad

      I have been following the Criticism on Quranists; It is funny how people call Quranists literists by the majority but then the rest of the sects (Majority) are also literists but only on the couple of lines that say that follow the messenger. Apart from that the majorities source is the Hadith because they believe the Quran is not detailed enough and you need another source to undertand it. Obviously if people knew the truth that would put all these Maulanas etc out of business. One needs to realise that our Prophet (PBUH) spoke the Quran, he never handed it to people in written form. When he spoke the Quran you had to obey him or disobey him. That are the only 2 options. He spoke the Quran so to believe in the Prophet (PBUH) you have to obey the Quran. That is Sunnah. Seems a bit illogical debate to me to be honest. The Hadith says that the Prophet (PBUH) told his Sahaba not to write Hadith if they were telling a lie and the Sahaba chose to burn their writings of the Hadith and that is why 200 years later Bukhari went out his way to ask people what the Prophet had said which actually goes against the practice of the Sahaba. Nobody says that all Hadith is then void if the practice was discouraged by the Prophet (PBUH) in the first place. Where do all the different sects come from? because they do not disagree on the Quran. Is that not a sign in itself?

      As for the “when was the Quran revealed comment”, you do not need to know when the Quran was revealed. That has nothing to do with Islam. What you need to do is follow the Quran.

      Whoever says that the Quran does not mention Wudu, Salah, Timings of Salah, Hajj, Ramadan, Zakat etc etc have obviously not studied the Quran. You do not need any other source.

      Also Allah (SWT) teaches us that all his messenger believed and said “La illaha ill Allah”, why would the Prophet (PBUH) teach that and then tell his followers to say something else? Point me to one mosque in the world that mentions Allah without his creations name along side him. If you understand hierarchy and structure of importance then Allah is at top and all the Prophets come under him because we are taught in the Quran [2:136] that a believer says that “we make no distinction between the Messengers”. All you see in every muslim house, in every mosque is the name of Muhammed (PBUH) on the same level and next to Allah (SWT). To be a Muslim according to the above Ayat, you need to equally mention all the Messengers of Allah and not make distinction between them. Look around the “Muslim World”, are they seriously the Pious and Righteous people as taught in the Quran??? Are we even Muslims???

      I can go on and on and on but seriously I know most people are ignorant so wont bother as Allah (SWT) teaches in the Quran “And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.” [6:116]. Allah only guides those that are in search for the truth not those who follow their forefathers.

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      1. MOhammed Rameez Avatar
        MOhammed Rameez

        why do you think your so brilliant people and that Bhukari and Muslim was idiots?. Brother, the collectors of Hadiths was not fools to quote the hadees about ” Prophet prohibiting sahaba’s from writing anything other than Quran from him” . But people of intelligence should interpret it in right perspective. The wisdom behind Prophet prohibiting Sahaba’s from writing hadiths was that He feared it might get mixed with Quran. Once Quran was consildated and compiled in books and people started attributing wrong things in the name of prophet and knwoledge abut his saying was losely collected memory of people , it was essential to collect and consolidate it fir the benefit of Ummah and that future generation has easy access to the sunnah of the prophet of Allah and their role model for QUran and way of life of islam is available readili

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      2. sajjad sarwar Avatar
        sajjad sarwar

        JazakAllah Kheir for your response my friend. I would like to say that I am a student of Comparative Religion and am still learning and so I do not believe I am a brilliant person as you say. I am from from that. My first response to your answer is who gave authority for Hadith to be recorded when in his life the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) did not allow writings of his sayings. You say he did not allow these sayings to be written down until after the Quran had been written down. So what you are implying is that Muhammed (pbuh) told his Sahaba to not record his sayings other than the Quran, this was practiced for the first 250 years of Islam and then Mr Bukhari had an inspiration and was told to collect Hadith. According to any thinking person; Mr Bukhari has not only disobeyed the first few guided Khalifas, Bukhari has gone against the Sahaba and has disobeyed the Prophet (pbuh). There is no Hadith that states that the Prophet (pbuh) said that once the Quran is recorded then I allow you to write my sayings. The Wisdom behind the Prophet (pbuh) prohibiting Hadith writings is because it is not a part of the religion. There was only ONE source of law followed by Muslims for the first 250 years since Allah (swt) perfected it. then 250 years later Mr Bukhari collected over 600,000 hadith from which he himself rejected 99%. Bukhari having rejected 99% shows the amount of corruption that was already around. Someone doesn’t have sugar at home and they’d tell their guests that we don’t have sugar because we saw that the Prophet (pbuh) didnt use it. That is how bad it was. Muslim was Bukhari’s student, yet they disagree on what one says is Sahih and what one says is Weak. They do not agree themselves; student and teacher. Easy access to Hadith? Allah (swt) promised to protect all that we needed to practice Islam. So why has Allah (swt) not protected the Hadith? As i stated above, this exercise for me is only to learn, not to criticize you or to think I’m better than you so apologizes before hand if it sounds like that.

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    3. Robert Johnson Avatar
      Robert Johnson

      A much better and more relevant question to ask is:
      Does the Quran authorize hadith collections such as Bukhari and Muslim?

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      1. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        This is @Ahmed.

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    4. sajjad Avatar
      sajjad

      Salaam. Those questions are easy. Let’s see what Allah says:

      1. a. “The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Quran, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong).” [2:185]. b. And (it is) a Quran which We have divided (into parts), in order that you might recite it to men at intervals. And We have revealed it by stages.” [17:106].
      2. There is no changing the words of Allah. That is the mighty achievement. [10:64].
      3. Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur’an) to make haste therewith. [75:16).

      Regards

      Sajjad

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  2. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
    Mohammed Darwish

    I wonder if that Quranist knows that the Hadith was conveyed [narrated] to us by the same people [Sahaba] who conveyed the Quran! … If we accept the Quran narrated to us by them, why it shouldn’t be the case for Hadith as well!

    Moreover, I wonder how this Quranist knew the details of Wodoo [wash for prayers], details of prayer, … even the number of Rakaa in each prayer! The details of Hajj, etc!

    Liked by 1 person

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    1. jayteem Avatar
      jayteem

      Hi Mohammed Darwish

      Peace be upon you.

      Would you mind revisiting your comments with reference to:

      Authenticity of The Quran

      “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).” – 15:9 (Yusuf Ali)

      (Note there is no mention of preserving hadith)

      Performing wudu

      “O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.” – 5:6 (Yusuf Ali)

      Of course, I could go on, but it would be a shame to deprive you of the opportunity to refer to The Quran instead of just talking about it.

      Many thanks

      (ps – if there are some details you can’t find, you might want to check the authority and/or veracity of the sources you have used instead).

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      1. OI Avatar
        OI

        The inherent problem with quoting 5:6 alone by itself is that the practice of making wudu is actually quite elaborated and not as simple as the verse points out, hence the need for prophetic explanation as to in what order to perform each step.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        @OI
        The Quran does not say that wudu is more elaborate and not as simple as what 5:6 points out.

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      3. JESUS Avatar
        JESUS

        you’re still wrong and you’re a quranist. It’s wipe your feet not wash. WASH COMES FROM HADITH NOT QURAN GET
        YOUR ARABIC RIGHT

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      4. farah Avatar
        farah

        So the Quoran is not corrupted because it said so ,,loool

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      5. AUBI Avatar
        AUBI

        “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).” – 15:9 (Yusuf Ali)

        (Note there is no mention of preserving hadith)
        where it says Quran???just asking

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    2. sajjad Avatar
      sajjad

      The Quran was compiled 23 years after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Hadith were recorded between 200-250 years after the Prophets death.

      Nobody first handedly witnessed the Sahaba in any written submission. All Hadith come from atleast seven generations after the Sahaba. Bukhari recorded over 600,000 hadith, out of which he rejected the majority. Bukhari was not Sahaba in the first place and was not asked by the Prophet (pbuh) to record Hadith. If the Prophet (pbuh) had allowed Hadith writing then it would have been recorded in his time.

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      1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
        Mohammed Darwish

        Selam Alykum, Sajjad;

        I went through your writings here. Unfortunately there are many misconceptions.

        When you say:
        > “Nobody first handedly witnessed the Sahaba in any written submission”
        Sajjad, Hadith was transmitted orally from generation to anther. In 3rd Cen. Hijra, Islamic State had exponentially expanded. Many non-Muslims and Non-Arab nations embraced Islam. Among such massive expansion, those who fish in dirty waters had increased. And it became like a miss! Every one says “The prophet said: bla bla bla”. During 3rd cen. Hijra, fake Hadith reached unprecedented level, the situation that pushed Imam Bukhari to lead the first serious campaign against such miss. Collected the Hadith. Investigated narrators. Sat the toughest filteration standards ever adopted in Islamic History. Other Imams existed around the same era and after wards like Imam Muslim, Ibn Dawood, Ibn Maja, Termithi and others.

        If you deny Hadith authenticity then I guess you are ignorant of how it was collected and compiled.
        I guess you never heard about …

        Narration Trees …
        Narration Standards …
        Science of Men (Elm Arrijal) …
        Hadith Classifications …
        Authenticity Levels …
        Authority Levels …
        Falsification Science …
        Crticisim and Alteration Science (Elm Al-Jarh Wa Al-Tadeel)

        Sajjad, Don’t dance around the idea of Hadith in our hands today being unauthentic. You’ll horribly lose.

        > ” Bukhari was not Sahaba”
        From where did you conclude that Sahaba Only are authorized to write Hadith! … Provided that Sahaba are “inherintly” in no need of Hadith. Simply cuz they had live! … It’s very logical people who didn’t live in the Prophet’s time are the one’s going to seek after his sayings.

        > ” If the Prophet (pbuh) had allowed Hadith writing then it would have been recorded in his time.”
        Of course the Prophet would prohibit writing the Hadith in his time. Cuz Quran was descending. What if people wrote both Quran and Hadith then after the Prophet (PBUH) dies they get confused which writings belong to which!

        What you miss here is that the real reason behind prohibiting writing the Hadith during the Prophet time is to protect the Quran from being mixed with the Prophet sayings. And it’s logical after the sky got closed after the prophet, the prohibition reason doesn’t exist anymore.

        Hazrit Abu Bakr also did a similar position like yours now! … When Hazrit Omar suggested to compile the Quran during Abu Bakr Khilafa. The latter said to Omar “How could we do something the prophet didn’t do during his life – means compiling the Quran – ” … Omar convinced him it’s cuz Sahaba keeping Quran in their chest are dying heavily in wars and he is afraid of the moment Quran get lost!. Abu Bakr found it beneficial for the Muslim Ummah and approved compiling the first Quran in-one-book in history.

        That being said, Bukhari and other Hadith Imams did’t commit a mistake when they wanted to preserve the prophet’s sayings.

        So … again, stop dancing around such non-sense argument Prophet’s prohibition of writing the Hadith. cuz it makes you look ignorant.

        May Allah show all of us the truth … And give us the power to follow it.

        Good Day …

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Boughlita Sof Avatar
        Boughlita Sof

        Hi Sajjad, I liked a lot your previous comments, but I just wanted to say that I disagree with you in regards your assumption that the Quran was compiled 23 years after the death of the prophet,
        it seems to me you took Sunni historical quotes as dead facts, any way that part of history I reject simply because God told us in the Quran that it was written in the form of a book in the time of the prophet, and the quotes are plenty in the Quran,
        [6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed
        [16:89]-We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters.
        This is just a few verses out of may be 50 or more similar verses that talk about a revealed book, yes there are as well many verses that talk about a revealed Quran, the different is very simple, before the Quran was written down in a physical book, God verses were like this ‘We did not reveal the Quran to you, to cause you any hardship” 20:2
        So from these verses we conclude that early revelations was quoted as Quran which means recital in Arabic and that’s how it got its name but once the Quran was written down it was referred to as a book and in a logical way that’s correct to call anything written on paper a book, and anything that is not written we can’t call it a book, we may call it a speech, sayings, recitations and so on but not a book unless it is written down.
        The reason why Sunni historians emphasize the story of the Quran not being written down in the prophet’s time is because they want us to believe that the same people that had safeguarded the unwritten Quran from loss had safeguarded as well the Hadiths and passed it down to us in the same manner they did with the Quran.

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      3. Zain Vian Avatar
        Zain Vian

        Excellent. Well written and totally correct!
        OMG that person OI is saying Quran isn’t fully detailed. He contradicts God. What a loser lol

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    3. Robert Johnson Avatar
      Robert Johnson

      @ Mohammed Darwish

      The first question to ask is, does the Quran give authority for hadith collections such as Bukhari and Muslim.

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      1. Learner Avatar
        Learner

        @Mohammed Darwish
        Don’t you think you are contradicting in what you wrote? You said that hearsays credited to the Prophet increased for which Bukhari had to make the book full of authentic ones. Now in the middle of so much lies, how did he figure out which ones are correct? According to sunni scholars of the early days, his master Ibn Hanbal memorized millions of hadiths and he actually tried to live them. Then how on earth Bukhari heard only 600,000 hadiths and then subtracted most of them? He worked along Ibn Hanbal who was on the verge of getting prophethood at the time.

        <<<>>>

        Unfortunately, Bukhari doesn’t explain the definition of Sahih in his book and strangely, how he applied his science of hadith was nowhere to be found. Stranger than this is that after his book came out more than hundreds of hadiths were taken out by another ancient scholar. Strangest than this is that even in 10th century, more editing was done to hadith books. Now if something keeps getting edited more than an Oscar worthy movie the only conclusion we get is that it must be too poor of a product. Avoid using terms like “toughest”. Words like that have been found in several Islamic books to hide the facts from the masses about hadiths.

        <<<<>>>
        Crticisim and Alteration Science (Elm Al-Jarh Wa Al-Tadeel)>>>>>

        Yet the hadith books remain full of contradictions and no one notices that the stoning the adultery punishment hadith comes from chimps and not the Prophet.

        <<<<<<>>>>>

        Don’t you think you are far more at loss? There are several hadiths that forbid pictures, making it a strict rule but you seem to be using your own picture as you avatar here. When you defend hadiths without practicing what they say you show your hypocrisy. Apparently, mainstream Muslims and even scholars say hadiths explain Quran and that means they must be far easier to understand? As for Quran, doesn’t it say obey the messenger which in sectarian style means 6 books of his sayings criticized, continuously edited and remixed to suit the cultures of other countries?

        <<<<>>>>>>

        Why when Quran says it is complete and that the Prophet is not anyone’s keeper or is it because hadiths bring back the pagan rituals back to Islam? Maybe it was a conspiracy. Hmm, I wonder why before flogging Ibn Hanbal refused to copy down that Quran is the book of lord. He was asked to do so. I also wonder why Al Shafi tried to convince people that hikmah means sunna of prophet when Allah already mentions this word explicitly in the Quran for his laws only. I wonder why he thinks wisdom means hadith books but don’t explain anything beyond that to prove his point.

        <<<<<>>

        I imagine Prophet saying, “don’t write my sayings now, let me first leave this world but Quranic ayats rhyme and hadiths are merely lines. It seems once we memorize a surah, it just sticks to head for almost forever and there are people who memorize the entire Quran. But do we have any scholar who has memorized all 6 books of hadiths? As I said earlier, Ibn Hanbal’s classical fans wrote that he memorized millions of hadiths. It must still be possible for humans to do right? Can you find one?
        <<<<<<<>>>>>
        Not even editing is prohibited! Not even publishing more hadith books around the world which have weirdly different hadiths like Prophet loved mushrooms.

        <<<<<>>>>

        Did you even read what you wrote here? First you claimed that Abu Bakre didn’t want to compile Quran because prophet didn’t. But then again you say that sahabas died in wars with Quran in their chests and then the first Quran in one book came. If you still claim that different sahabas had different verses then it means they never had a chance to have glimpse of the complete Quran. Moreover, there is another hadith which claims that Prophet was in charge of Quran compilation and it was completed in his time. Strange that Abu Bakr was not given a copy!

        <<<>>
        Go over the first info I gave and then prove that , Bukhari and other Hadith Imams didn’t commit mistake. Each point I wrote about hanbal, shafi, editing and so on comes directly from books written about hadiths prior and subsequent time of Bukhari. Now don’t ask me how I got hold of this info. Just google or go to any good university library to check out the writings of the ancient scholars including sahians.

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    4. sajjad sarwar Avatar
      sajjad sarwar

      JazakAllah Kheir for your response my friend. I replied this to another response which is relevant here too. I would like to say that I am a student of Comparative Religion and am still learning. My first response to your answer is who gave authority for Hadith to be recorded when in his life the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) did not allow writings of his sayings. You say he did not allow these sayings to be written down until after the Quran had been written down. So what you are implying is that Muhammed (pbuh) told his Sahaba to not record his sayings other than the Quran, this was practiced for the first 250 years of Islam and then Mr Bukhari had an inspiration and was told to collect Hadith. According to any thinking person; Mr Bukhari has not only disobeyed the first few guided Khalifas, Bukhari has gone against the Sahaba and has disobeyed the Prophet (pbuh). There is no Hadith that states that the Prophet (pbuh) said that once the Quran is recorded then I allow you to write my sayings. The Wisdom behind the Prophet (pbuh) prohibiting Hadith writings is because it is not a part of the religion. There was only ONE source of law followed by Muslims for the first 250 years since Allah (swt) perfected it. then 250 years later Mr Bukhari collected over 600,000 hadith from which he himself rejected 99%. Bukhari having rejected 99% shows the amount of corruption that was already around and that he could have never got it totally right no matter how much he tried. Someone doesn’t have sugar at home and they’d tell their guests that we don’t have sugar because we saw that the Prophet (pbuh) didnt use it. That is how bad it was. Muslim was Bukhari’s student, yet they disagree on what one says is Sahih and what one says is Weak. They do not agree themselves; student and teacher. Easy access to Hadith? Allah (swt) promised to protect all that we needed to practice Islam. So why has Allah (swt) not protected the Hadith? As i stated above, this exercise for me is only to learn, not to criticize you or to think I’m better than you so apologizes before hand if it sounds like that.

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  3. Mushu Avatar
    Mushu

    Reblogged this on mushuchism and commented:
    Yet another example of a Traditionalist critique missing the point.

    When Quranist say “I reject hadiths because they are the opinions of fallible men,” it usually means they reject the belief that hadiths are the actual words of the Prophet or that they represent his or God’s authority. *This* is the nature of the rejection.

    Yes, lexicons, dictionaries, writings and memory are all transmitted and authored by fallible men, which is exactly why they are not considered authoritative statements from God. Quranists simply place hadiths in the same category.

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  4. seekingthetruthonline Avatar
    seekingthetruthonline

    Anyone rejecting Hadith is on an express train out of Islam.
    First don’t call them Quranists they’re people of Bida’, they’re no more followers of Quran as Christians are of Jesus Christ PBUH.

    I have read an article on one of their websites, they’ve redefined salat as what they’ve decided it is in Quran, so they pray twice a day and they can’t agree if they have a prayer at night. I did not bother to find out how they perform the prayer.

    Narrated Anas bin Malik:
    Allah’s Messenger said, “Whoever prays like us and faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allah’s and His Apostle’s protection. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection.”

    In-book reference
    Book 8, Hadith 43
    Reference
    Sahih al-Bukhari 391
    USC-MSA web (English) reference
    Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 386

    Since they no longer pray like us, I leave the conclusion to the reader.

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    1. koranist Avatar
      koranist

      The problem is that verse 2.197 downplays qibla and puts emphasis on faith, charity and conduct.

      There are too many contradictions between Quran and hadith for us to follow both. The Islamic sects (sunnis and shias) abrogated many verses of the Quran (such as 2.197) to protect their hadiths.

      Also apostasy law in sharia law contradicts and violates more than 30 verses of the Quran. Other contradictions are offensive war and conquest, amputation for stealing, stoning adulterer and divorce laws. The Quran regonizes defensive war only and justice is built on equal retribution and proportionality (eye for an eye, soul for a soul, hand for a hand etc). In Quran justice is always proportional. The punishment should fit the crime, never higher.

      There are other contradictions.

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      1. seekingthetruthonline Avatar
        seekingthetruthonline

        2.197 is talking about Hajj.

        This is the problem with being selective.
        “I can’t understand it therefore I will drop a chunk of Islam”

        The Prophet PBUH talked about people who will do your actions,
        In Sunan Abi Dawood 4605

        The Prophet PBUH said: “Do not let me find one of you while relaxing on his couch, the command from me reaches him, only for him to say “I don’t know, what we found in the book of Allah we followed””

        لا ألفين أحدكم متكئا على أريكته يأتيه الأمر من أمري مما أمرت به أو نهيت عنه فيقول : لا ندري ما وجدنا في كتاب الله اتبعناه
        الراوي: أسلم القبطي أبو رافع مولى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم المحدث: أبو داود – المصدر: سنن أبي داود – الصفحة أو الرقم: 4605
        خلاصة حكم المحدث: سكت عنه [وقد قال في رسالته لأهل مكة كل ما سكت عنه فهو صالح]

        Word of advice read 59:7

        …. And whatever the Messenger has given you – take; and what he has forbidden you – refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

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      2. will praise Avatar
        will praise

        I think every muslim should read Al Quran as it is our guide as mentioned many times in Al Quran. Some if not most Muslim do not read Quran as they just depend on other people to do so and either ask or read from them. However, reading Quran doesn’t mean reinterpreting Quran. I don’t think anybody without thorough understanding of history, ancient Arabic language and other related subjects can do so without any error. I came across one Quranist and we talked about his Idea of being Quranist and why everyone should only refer to Al Quran. He reads Al Quran and it is such a pain to see him trying to interpret Al Quran every time. Why? His answer –
        1. I believe the history was not properly written.
        2. Hadith have been distorted or amended and they are words of mouth.
        3. Ulama’ are fallible
        4. “Muhammad” was just a messenger and his duty was only to convey Al Quran.

        Interestingly he admitted Al Quran is the truth and he said there’s no mistake in Al Quran (which all of us believe too). He however still question some ayah in Al Quran and even doubting “Muhammad” was the actual messenger, because his name was referred as “Muhammadin” or “Ahmadun” which are adjectives instead of nouns (notice he didn’t say Prophet as he is not sure whether Prophet Muhammad pbuh was the real messenger). And other questions which will be too long for me to write here. For someone who reads Al Quran he missed out some very important points, which i think he didn’t notice because he was busy reinterpreting ayah.

        The points that he (and other Quranist) missed out are:

        1. Sunnah and hadith are narrated by Sahabah and Tabi’in. The very same people who help preserve Islam and Al Quran until it reached him. How can he just ignore these good people without whom he wouldn’t even heard of Al Quran?

        2. In Al Quran there are so many stories about other Prophets and Messengers and how they were rejected by their people. Every time a scripture sent down (Psalm, Taurah, Gospel) there will be a Messenger to deliver and “teach” the scripture to his people. And every time, the people rejected the messengers except some. Isn’t this the same with Quranist? Embrace Al Quran, reject “teaching” of Prophet Muhammad pbuh? Is history not repeating now? The very history written in Al Quran that they claimed they 100 percent believe? Isn’t that ironic?

        3, The are Prophets without any scripture like Noah, Hud and many others as mentioned in Al Quran. Doesn’t this mean that we must listen to the Prophet too, instead of just reading the Al Quran. Al Quran and teaching of Prophet Muhammad pbuh cannot be separated.

        4. Rejecting sunnah and hadith means rejecting the teaching of the Messenger of Allah. If this is what we are doing, it will means we don’t really believe in Al Quran, because all the stories mentioned to show us that we must embrace the scriptures and follow the Messengers’ teaching.

        And we can’t just ignore the Sahabah and Salaf as if they are not part of equation that preserve Al Quran until today. The same Quran that Quranist now read and trying to reinterpret. Are the Quranist saying the very people who preserve Al Quran and help spread the religion and Al Quran are of deviant or wrongdoing people?

        May Allah show the truth to us and all the people of the world.

        Jazakallah khair.

        Like

      3. koranist Avatar
        koranist

        Al-Birr (Piety, Righteousness) Print E-mail

        This Ayah contains many great wisdoms, encompassing rulings and correct beliefs.

        As for the explanation of this Ayah, Allah first commanded the believers to face Bayt Al-Maqdis, and then to face the Ka`bah during the prayer. This change was difficult for some of the People of the Book, and even for some Muslims. Then Allah sent revelation which clarified the wisdom behind this command, that is, obedience to Allah, adhering to His commands, facing wherever He commands facing, and implementing whatever He legislates, that is the objective. This is Birr, Taqwa and complete faith. Facing the east or the west does not necessitate righteousness or obedience, unless it is legislated by Allah. This is why Allah said:

        ﴿لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَن تُوَلُّواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَـكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾

        (It is not Birr that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Birr is the one who believes in Allah and the Last Day,)

        Similarly, Allah said about the sacrifices:

        ﴿لَن يَنَالَ اللَّهَ لُحُومُهَا وَلاَ دِمَآؤُهَا وَلَـكِن يَنَالُهُ التَّقْوَى مِنكُمْ﴾

        (It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah, but it is the piety from you that reaches Him.) (22:37)

        Abu Al-`Aliyah said, “The Jews used to face the west for their Qiblah, while the Christians used to face the east for their Qiblah. So Allah said:

        ﴿لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَن تُوَلُّواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ﴾

        (It is not Birr that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers)) (2: 177) meaning, “this is faith, and its essence requires implementation.” Similar was reported from Al-Hasan and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas.

        http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=265

        So it is not accurate to say its talking about Haj. Notice also how ibn kathir completely ignores what the verse is actually saying.

        Like

      4. Mahmud Avatar
        Mahmud

        Liars like you show the rest of the world the weak foundations of your falsehood.

        Like

      5. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        @ seekingthetruthonline

        You say
        “This is the problem with being selective. ‘I can’t understand it therefore I will drop a chunk of Islam’”

        … and then you go on to take 59:7 out of context by dropping a chunk of the verse!

        Like

    2. koranist Avatar
      koranist

      The problem is that Sunni sources themselves claim that the prophet prayed twice a day in Mecca.So wehn some Quranist pray twice a day it is actually a Muhamedan prayers. There is a hadith about ascending to heaven and we are told that the obligation of 50 prayers were given. We are told under the advice of Moses, Muhammad kept bringing the amount down until it reached five. We are told that even then Moses felt it was too burdensome and Muhammad agreed but was too embarrassed to ask for any lesser. So it stayed at five. This story is not found in the Quran and the five salat are never mentioned once. You can pray five times if you want since that is OK Quranically. But looks like Moses’s advice and Muhammad’s concern was right as today it is reported that nearly 90% of Muslims do not perform Salat.

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      1. Mahmud Avatar
        Mahmud

        Yes, we are told and we believe because we are Muslim, you don’t because you are a kaffir.

        Like

    3. Irwin Avatar
      Irwin

      Lol thats so funny…. The only thing they say that they follow is the Quran and yo are concluding that they don’t follow the Qur’an because they don’t follow the “Hadith”. Nice reasoning you got my brother!! Hahahaha

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      1. Mahmud Avatar
        Mahmud

        They don’t follow the Quran because they do not follow the Quran. It really is that simple. They are Quranists and they are disbelievers.

        Like

    4. sajjad Avatar
      sajjad

      Please can the people that seriously think that mankind was at its best and recorded the hadiths perfectly, please go study how the bible was compiled. The Hadiths were passed through 7 generations before Mr Bukhari came in to Save Islam. Whereas the bibles first book was written only 45 years after Isa (pbuh) was taken up. Are we saying that the God believing men who wrote the bible were evil and the ones that recorded the hadith were the best of men?

      The Bible is not the word of God, as we all know. It is a collection of many books, written by men, shortly after Isa (pbuh) was taken up. Some of these books being written by his disciples. We reject the Bible so why would we uphold the hadith which was not recorded until between 200 and 250 years later. 7 generations. You have the Old Testament and the New Testament. Think it as the Sahih Bukhari and the Sahih Muslim; The New Testament is the Sahih and the Old Testament has all the recordings including what the church declared as not Sahih.

      The only difference between Islam and Christianity is that we have the protected word of Allah (swt), which is the Quran.

      The shame for Muslims. Let me break this down for you – you are not a Muslim unless you follow the Quran. The biggest shame is that MOST Muslims have NEVER read the Quran in their own language and so what are they following if not the instructions of God?

      Why do people refer to and Muslim Bible when they have the word of Allah (swt). Why do you need to study and nothing else first? Why do all Sunnis study the hadith and nothing nd not the Quran? Reading it in Arabic is not going to benefit you unless you know Arabic.

      Right, now the debate regarding the amount of root words in the Arabic language. The Arabic in the Quran is 95% straight forward. There is only around 5% where people use different root words. The idea that you cannot understand the Quran unless you know the whole Arabic language is a farce. You only have to study the 5% to understand where the differences lay.

      “Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], “We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position.” Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever.” Quran 39.3.

      “And when adversity touches man, he calls upon his Lord, turning to Him [alone]; then when He bestows on him a favor from Himself, he forgets Him whom he called upon before, and he attributes to Allah equals to mislead [people] from His way. Say, “Enjoy your disbelief for a little; indeed, you are of the companions of the Fire.” Quran 39.8.

      “Say, [O Muhammad], “I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.” Say, “Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?” Quran 6.50.

      “He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.” Quran 3:7.

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    5. Robert Johnson Avatar
      Robert Johnson

      @ seekingthetruthonline

      You said “Anyone rejecting Hadith is on an express train out of Islam.”
      Does the Quran say this??

      Why are you referring to a quote by Anas bin Malik when the Quran has not said it is a source of divine guidance?

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    6. Robert Johnson Avatar
      Robert Johnson

      @ Mahmud

      You said
      “They don’t follow the Quran because they do not follow the Quran. It really is that simple. They are Quranists and they are disbelievers.”
      Your comment lacks substance. Someone can neutralize your comment and say back to you “Hadithists don’t follow the Quran because they do not follow the Quran. It really is that simple. They are Hadithists and they are disbelievers.”

      You said
      “Liars like you show the rest of the world the weak foundations of your falsehood.”
      Our foundation is the Quran. Are you calling the Quran weak and false??

      You said
      “Yes, we are told and we believe because we are Muslim, you don’t because you are a kaffir.”
      So you must believe what people tell you to be a Muslim and not a kaffir?? Whatever happened to believing what Allah tells you in the Quran to be a Muslim and not a kaffir??

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    7. sajjad sarwar Avatar
      sajjad sarwar

      Salaam brother. Before making a judgement from other peoples opinions, is it not more fitting as a Muslim to debate with a person that upholds the Quran rather than labeling them and try understand what they say. I am not a Quranist, yet I follow the Quran. Any believer knows not to label another person that Believes in Allah (swt) and His Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Allah (swt) says that He has named a believer a Muslim and the religion a believer follows is Islam. When you label your sect and label other sects are you not Disobeying the Prophet (pbuh) both from a Quranic Point of view and a Hadith point of view? We have studied the Hadith you know, people try to understand what they follow before following it. I refuse to follow my forefathers without questioning them as did Ibrahim (pbuh). He rejected his own fathers religion and upheld Monotheism.

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    8. sajjad Avatar
      sajjad

      Bidda? Would you say that the Quran came before Biddah could possibly take place? The Quran is the word of Allah, when you decide to put the Quran on the shelf and choose to hear out opinions of men over the word of God then what could be more Bidda??? When you downplay the eternal word of God because you hang on to the word of men more than the word of God then thats the worst in character because when you do that, you become rejectors of the Quran. Ignorant Muslims then will say, “Ye, but we uphold all of the Quran”, yet they don’t know anything in it a part of their favorite 2 lines which they have learned from the entirety of the Quran. if you uphold the verses then why do you call people Quranists for upholding the same verses? why do you change the word of God by following your preferred Imams who again know more about hadith then in the word of God. When Allah’s asks the following question then the answer to that question exposes your character: In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?” [45:6]. Do you believe in just Allah and His Revelations or do you believe in other than that? Bukhari, Muslim etc are not God’s revelations. They have contradicting statements on the same suject.

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      1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
        Mohammed Darwish

        Sajjad;
        Why don’t you just give yourself a lesson on what “revelations” may mean/includes and whether hadith enrolls under it or not! … Before you spam Muslims blogs with quranist bulshit.

        And by the way, your knowledge on Arabic sucks! … And putting Hadith in CAPS within the verse reflects how dishonest (or ignorant) you are.

        Go read my long discussions/debate with your astray quranist roommate. You’ll learn a lot.

        I wonder if you guys had figured out how can you call for prayer times in mosques?! … I recommended “ringing a bell” every prayer, to your astray roommate. Unfortunately he’s still insisting to call for the prayers the same way mentioned in Hadith.

        I’m happy Abdullah Andalusi had addressed the what-so-called “Quranists” then left this thread for you to express your zero knowledge about Islam. Good for audience.

        May Allah protect Ummet Muhammed from your dhalal.

        Like

    9. Rafik Avatar
      Rafik

      Is the Quran complete or not. Allah (SWT) says that his book is complete. Why will you not believe it and then call yourself muslim and condemning as bida` those who believe that the Quran is indeed complete.

      Like

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    10. Abram Avatar
      Abram

      Isn’t it a little strange that praying is done differently between the Muslim sects? There are three main different ways of salah. How do you know which one is correct? All of them come from authentic hadith.

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  5. idesireranks Avatar
    idesireranks

    Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

    Good article, jazzakAllahu khair.

    Like

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    1. Robert Johnson Avatar
      Robert Johnson

      The article does not show, from the Quran, that we must accept hadith collections such as Bukhari and Muslim for divine guidance.

      Like

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  6. Amarah Avatar
    Amarah

    Assalamaulaikum wa ramatullahi wa barakatuh

    I have lost a lot of faith in The Islam that has been taught to me, I am from a Sunni family. I have never even tried to red the meaning of the Quran as I have always been told that it is Too Deep fro me to understand which I have always felt was a bit ridiculous as we are supposed to read it all the time, heat the Hadiths were constanly pushed under my nose to read and reread and I was under the impression that they were all in the Quran so they must be important! My son just bought me a Quran translated in English and I am shocked to discover so much in it that we’re not told to us and they are very important things. So although I am not a Quranist I feel that most Muslims worship Muhammed and the Hadiths rather then the Quran which I think is very very wrong and things need to change if we are to keep our children in the folds of Islam

    Anonymous

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  7. khalil sharif Avatar
    khalil sharif

    This is sad sad sad. The muslims don’t believe that the Quran can stand on it’s own. They dont believe what the book says of itself, that it is detailed,it is complete,safe guarded and nothinf shortof a miracle. Sad!

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  8. khalil sharif Avatar
    khalil sharif

    This is sad sad sad. The muslims don’t believe that the Quran can stand on it’s own. They dont believe what the book says of itself, that it is detailed,it is complete,safe guarded and nothing short of a miracle. Sad!

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    1. idesireranks Avatar
      idesireranks

      Sad that a kaffir thinks he is a Muslim although he has rejected the Messenger of Allah SAW and in doing so, rejected the book of Allah aza wa jal.

      Rejecting the Sunnah is rejecting the book of Allah aza wa jal.

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      1. khalil sharif Avatar
        khalil sharif

        You’re the funniest. You would equate collections of heresay with the prophet’s(pbuh) sunnah. Do you honestly think you follow the prophets sunnah when adhere to what Bakhari said so and so said? The Quran,the protected book says surely you will find no change in Allah’s sunnah. The Quran is without a doubt sufficient!

        Like

      2. idesireranks Avatar
        idesireranks

        You act as if Bukhari made it up and as if he was the first to transmit hadith. He wasn’t, his is just a major collection of authentic hadith. Hadith collecting became way before him.

        And you really are funny. Nothing more funny than a disbeliever who thinks he is Muslim.

        Sad too.

        Like

      3. jayteem Avatar
        jayteem

        Hi idesireranks

        Who are you to decide if someone is kaffir or not?

        “O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.” – 49:11 (Yusuf Ali)

        Many thanks

        Like

      4. Sajjad Avatar
        Sajjad

        I have been following the Criticism on Quranists; It is funny how people call Quranists literists by the majority but then the rest of the sects (Majority) are also literists but only on the couple of lines that say that follow the messenger. Apart from that the majorities source is the Hadith because they believe the Quran is not detailed enough and you need another source to undertand it. Obviously if people knew the truth that would put all these Maulanas etc out of business. One needs to realise that our Prophet (PBUH) spoke the Quran, he never handed it to people in written form. When he spoke the Quran you had to obey him or disobey him. That are the only 2 options. He spoke the Quran so to believe in the Prophet (PBUH) you have to obey the Quran. That is Sunnah. Seems a bit illogical debate to me to be honest. The Hadith says that the Prophet (PBUH) told his Sahaba not to write Hadith if they were telling a lie and the Sahaba chose to burn their writings of the Hadith and that is why 200 years later Bukhari went out his way to ask people what the Prophet had said which actually goes against the practice of the Sahaba. Nobody says that all Hadith is then void if the practice was discouraged by the Prophet (PBUH) in the first place. Where do all the different sects come from? because they do not disagree on the Quran. Is that not a sign in itself?

        As for the “when was the Quran revealed comment”, you do not need to know when the Quran was revealed. That has nothing to do with Islam. What you need to do is follow the Quran.

        Whoever says that the Quran does not mention Wudu, Salah, Timings of Salah, Hajj, Ramadan, Zakat etc etc have obviously not studied the Quran. You do not need any other source.

        Also Allah (SWT) teaches us that all his messenger believed and said “La illaha ill Allah”, why would the Prophet (PBUH) teach that and then tell his followers to say something else? Point me to one mosque in the world that mentions Allah without his creations name along side him. If you understand hierarchy and structure of importance then Allah is at top and all the Prophets come under him because we are taught in the Quran [2:136] that a believer says that “we make no distinction between the Messengers”. All you see in every muslim house, in every mosque is the name of Muhammed (PBUH) on the same level and next to Allah (SWT). To be a Muslim according to the above Ayat, you need to equally mention all the Messengers of Allah and not make distinction between them. Look around the “Muslim World”, are they seriously the Pious and Righteous people as taught in the Quran??? Are we even Muslims???

        I can go on and on and on but seriously I know most people are ignorant so wont bother as Allah (SWT) teaches in the Quran “And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.” [6:116]. Allah only guides those that are in search for the truth not those who follow their forefathers.

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      5. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        @ idesireranks

        You said
        “Sad that a kaffir thinks he is a Muslim although he has rejected the Messenger of Allah SAW and in doing so, rejected the book of Allah aza wa jal. Rejecting the Sunnah is rejecting the book of Allah aza wa jal.”

        Muhammad delivered the Quran as Allah’s messenger. So obviously a person that accepts the Quran also accepts the messenger that delivered it. The Quran does not say you need to accept hadith collections such as Bukhari and Muslim in order to accept the messenger of Allah or to be a muslim.

        Like

      6. yaks4u Avatar
        yaks4u

        Salaam

        You said:

        Sad that a kaffir thinks he is a Muslim although he has rejected the Messenger of Allah SAW and in doing so, rejected the book of Allah aza wa jal.

        Rejecting the Sunnah is rejecting the book of Allah aza wa jal.

        My response:

        First and foremost, CALLING ANOTHER who says ‘SALAAMU ALAIKUM’ a kaafir is against the Quran, THE Quran warns that DO NOT CALL ANOTHER who USES Salaamualaikum a kaafir.

        Secondly, You said REJECTING THE SUNNAH IS REJECTING THE BOOK OF ALLAH!!

        That Theory is NOT in the Quran! The Quran MADE THE PROPHET SWORE!!! TO Wsear THAT THE ONLY GUIDANCE he has been given is the QURAN!!!

        The Quran MAKES it clear THAT THE PROPHET CANNOT GUIDE ANYONE TO THE RIGTH PART!!! The Only Guider is Allah!!! There is NOTHING like the prophets SUNNAH in the Quran!! ALl you find in the Quran is Sunnatullah!!! Allahs SUnnah.

        So when i hear people say.. The best book is ALlahs and the best Guidance is Muahmmed sunnah I WONDER IF THEY ARE AWARE OF THE SHIRK they are commiting!!!

        Like

  9. pax2810 Avatar
    pax2810

    If someone sincerely turns to Allah and seeks to know Allah, its up to Allah to judge their sincerity and their actions, Only Allah knows whats truly in peoples heart and minds and what their intentions really are.

    Quranism is better than someone loosing faith completely because the traditions they were taught don’t work for them to establish a bond with Allah. If they lost their faith in the scholars and writers of hadiths, but remain firm in their belief in Allah, I think that Allah is forgiving and merciful.

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    1. Mahmud Avatar
      Mahmud

      No, they disbelievers.

      Remember-failing to reject the kufr of kaffirs is kufr itself. Your personal opinions have no-bearing-they are disbelievers.

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      1. koranist Avatar
        koranist

        Kufr as understood by the Kuran is based on the criteria of faith in God and the after life. The 5 pillars of Islam is not Quranic. The Quran says there are Christian believers and Jewish believers and other monotheirst believers. We are not saying that Sunnis and Shias are disbelievers, we are saying their Sharia is not Quranic and it is not the Islam followed by the prophet.

        The Quran is non sectarian.

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      2. Mahmud Avatar
        Mahmud

        The Quran is non-sectarian and you are a kaffir.

        Anyone who thinks non-Muslims who hear of Islam and fail to enter it are also Muslims are kuffar. It doesn’t matter if you take a few ayat out of context describing some non-Muslims and fail to read the other ones condemning anyone who fails to enter Islam as a kaffir destined to Jahannam. If you fail to recognize that, that’s another disbelief in addition to your disbelief.

        Kufr is disbelieving the ayat of Allah aza wa jal. You are disbelieving the ayat of Allah aza wa jal whether you think you are or you aren’t. Allah does not need to subject himself to your whims. The ultimatum is on you.

        Like

      3. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
        Mohammed Darwish

        Mr. Koranist!

        “Kufur” means disbelief. I’ll agree that before the rise of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) there were people whom Allah called believers n they will go to Jannah. However, after Islam, the believe in Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) became an essential prerequisite for the person to be categorized a believer, not a kafir.

        And Quran is indeed sectarian!
        It supports all who believe in the Aqeedah sourced from it. And promises them with Jannah. While condemns all those who have mixed their Aqeedah with principles were not mentioned by it. Calls them Kafirs and promises them with Jahannam.
        There is no middle way in the Quran when it comes to Aqeedah.

        And from where you came up from such none sense that the 5 pillars of Islam are not Quranic?!
        Yes, they are not all mentioned in a single Aya but you’ll find them mentioned in somewhere else within the Quran either together or in individual.
        The Sahada. The prayer. The Zakat. The Fasting. The Hajj. All are mentioned/supported by the Quran. So how dare you put such irresponsible statement.

        If your head believes in something not explicitly mentioned in the Quran and you consider it a “Pillar”. Then you don’t belong to the sect the Quran supports!

        Like

      4. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        @Mahmud

        You said
        “Kufr is disbelieving the ayat of Allah aza wa jal.”

        Do you disbelieve the verses that say that the Book of Allah is explained in detail (6:114) and that the Book is ” … a clarification for all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted” (16:89)?

        Like

      5. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        @Mohammed Darwish

        You said
        “And Quran is indeed sectarian!”

        Are you sure??? I strongly recommend you read 6:159.

        You said
        “While condemns all those who have mixed their Aqeedah with principles were not mentioned by it.”

        Where does the Quran say that accepting the hadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim are part of Aqeedah? If the Quran does not say this and you still accept these hadith collections as part of Islam, are you not mixing your Aqeedah with principles not mentioned in the Quran?? Will you not be condemned for mixing Aqeedah with principles not mentioned in the Quran??

        You said
        “And from where you came up from such none sense that the 5 pillars of Islam are not Quranic?!”

        Does the Quran say Islam has “pillars” and that there are only 5?

        Like

  10. koranist Avatar
    koranist

    “However, after Islam, the believe in Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) became an essential prerequisite for the person to be categorized a believer, not a kafir.”

    Its the belief in his message and what he preached that’s important and not just believing he is a prophet. All Muslims believe the Quran is God’s word but very few follow it.

    There are many pillars of faith in Islam but the Muslim one comes from hadith sources and is sectarian. How many prophets did haj in Mecca? Or fasted Ramadan like Muslims do? Any pillars of faith must be shared by all the prophets.

    Mahmud’s post shows how sectarian Muslims are. He thinks that faith is anything that agrees with him and kufr is anything that disagrees with him.

    The Quran says ANYONE who believes in one God and beliefs in an afterlife is a believer.

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    1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      The belief on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) implies the believe on his message. I’m not here to play with words. You don’t need to resort to some trivial explanations for the known by default.

      “How many prophets did haj in Mecca? Or fasted Ramadan like Muslims do? Any pillars of faith must be shared by all the prophets” …
      Though Prophets Adam, Noah, Hood, Saleh, Abraham, Ishmael, Solomon all performed a visit to Mecca (not necessarily a Hajj in the Islamic context), However, your question is irrelevant to the topic. Hajj/Prayer/Zakat/Fasting are all METHODS of worship. Aqeeda is a different term. While all prophets came to promote the same Aqeeda (ie. the believe in one God “Allah”) their messages differed in methods of worship. While human race was socially evolving, new Allah descended new worshiping methods and laws. For example, while both Prophet Mosa’s & Prophet Muhammad (PBUT) are the same in Aqeeda (Iman on one God “Allah”) they differed in methods of worship. In fact it’s stated in the Quran that Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) message came to smoothen may laws that were imposed on the Jews. Such laws are part of worship. Thus, “How many prophets did hajj in Mecca?” reflects your ignorance on such fact!

      In addition, Pillars of Islam moves into two dimensions. Aqeeda (The first Pillar). Method of Worship (the other four Pillars). Therefore, “Pillars of Religion” having a component of “Methods of worship”, it makes “Pillars” themselves variable from prophet to prophet. Thus your assertion “Pillars of faith must be shared by all prophets” is, again, inaccurate!

      BTW, Mr. Koranist, being a sectarian isn’t a problem in itself. Any one is supposed to support what he believes. However, being offensives to other sects only because they are different from his, is the wrong behavior. So, YES, I’m a sectarian SUNNY but I don’t hate other sects just because they are different than mine or even advocate violence against them (as some sects do in their “mothers of books”)!

      At last, I mentioned it before, Yes, Quran called many people/nations/tribes who existed before prophet Muhammad (PBUH) believers. But after the prophet, again, it’s not enough believing in one God and afterlife while keeping Prophet Muhammad out of the equation! Islam is the last and ever lasting “Operating System” downloaded by God to humanity where previous are considered “Legacy”!

      If you were a Muslim and find other people who believe in one God and the afterlife but not Prophet Muhammad, and you see them equal to you, then you definitely have a problem!

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      1. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        Please read 6:159 of the Quran.

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    2. Mahmud Avatar
      Mahmud

      1) Note true. There are deviated sects but they are Muslim. You aren’t, you are a kaffir. That’s one lie from you.

      2) You are a disbeliever in God because you disbelieve His Message even though you claim to accept. So have the decency to exclude yourself from the category of believers. By the way, Allah aza wa jal defines belief, and he made it clear in the very Quran that he only accepts Quran. Taking a few ayat out of context and ignoring the rest which condemn Jews and Christians and the rest as disbelievers and destined to hell is another evidence of your blatant kufr.

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      1. KAS Avatar
        KAS

        So easy for you to accuse people as kaffir. shame on you as muslim. That is what your “Islam” teach you bro?

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      2. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        @ Mahmud

        If someone accepts the Quran, how does this make him/her a kaffir? How do people that follow the Quran alone, disbelieve the Quran?

        You said:
        “By the way, Allah aza wa jal defines belief, and he made it clear in the very Quran that he only accepts Quran.”

        So you are saying that Allah only accepts the Quran? Isn’t this what people, that only accept the Quran for divine guidance, say?

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    3. Mahmud Avatar
      Mahmud

      “Its the belief in his message and what he preached that’s important and not just believing he is a prophet. ”

      You are certainly a disbeliever and one of the most foolish of them. Perish in your falsehood.

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      1. Muslim Avatar
        Muslim

        His messages are right in Quran where he says “Come, let me tell you what your lord said”. If your heart is not darkened by the power of satan you will read these lines.

        45:6 – These are Gods revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?

        7:185 – Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?

        31:6 – Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

        77:50 – Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?

        17:46 – We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Qur’an alone, they run away in aversion.

        39:23 – God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God’s message. Such is God’s guidance; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God nothing can guide them.

        16:105 – The only ones who fabricate false doctrines are those who do not believe in God’s revelations; they are the real liars.

        16:116 – You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating: “This is lawful, and this is unlawful,” to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.

        6:114 – Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?”

        And before you accuse someone else of being disbeliever please show us by doing these that you truly do and believe in everything written in hadith books.

        1. Drink camel pee
        2. Tell a black woman that if she comes in your dream then it will be a bad omen.
        3. French kiss a man provided you are a man. if you are a woman, french kiss a woman.
        4. Throw up if you are drinking your water standing up. This is instructed by Mr Bukhari.
        5. Have as many children as possible with his your/husband. This is also instructed by Mr Bukhari
        6. Take house fly wings in your tea and drink it.

        Just upload videos of each to prove us that you are faithful to hadith books.

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      2. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        @ Mahmud

        You said
        “Perish in your falsehood.”

        Are you saying that believing the Quran to be divine guidance is falsehood??

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    4. sajjad Avatar
      sajjad

      Nowhere in the Quran does in mention the Shahada as “there is no god but God and Muhammed is his Messenger”. On the contrary it says do not make any distinctions between the Messengers. Allah (swt) does not use the word Prophet; he says all Messengers. WHY?

      Well have a good look around. In the Quran, Allah (swt) tells that His Sunnah has never changed since the beginning. He tells us in the Quran that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) gave the same message as Isa (pbuh), who gave the same message as Musa (pbuh), Ibrahim (pbuh) etc etc. So the message revealed to Muhammed (pbuh) was the same as before and nothing new.

      What happens when people attach to their Prophet? You have Christianity, Judaism and Islam. But wait their Prophet taught exactly what Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) taught. So why is this forbidden? Why are we not allowed to attach creator with creation?

      Because men will kill each other saying that their Prophet is better than the other. You have sects in Islam where there is already a debate about Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his companion Ali. Can you not see the effects of making distinction between God’s creation – it causes separation.

      Do the Jews and Christians not believe in God? They surely do. What is the only unforgivable shirk which the previous people are guilty of? SHIRK!!! WHY? THEY MADE THEIR PROPHET (PBUH) BETTER THAN THE OTHER PROPHET (PBUT). Even hadith speaks against this practise. But humans are ignorant and prefer he’ll over heaven. If that was not true then they would not make the same mistake over thousands of years.

      Is the testimony of faith correct today? The Quran tells every Prophet (pbut)’s testimony which is “There is no god but God”. That has been the testimony of faith since Adam (pbuh). The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) could not have asked his followers to say anything other than what’s in the Quran otherwise he has not done his job.

      Qur’an 5:47—“Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”

      “And they were commanded only to worship Allah, and worship none but Him Alone (no gods beside God), and perform prayers and give charity: and that is the right religion.”
      [98:4-5]

      And who turns away from the religion of Abraham (Monotheism) except him who fools himself? Truly, (Allah) chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

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  11. khalil sharif Avatar
    khalil sharif

    Please tell me; who is it that has that has the authority to pick out 5, “pillars” of faith in Islam? Of all the things mentioned in Quran that could be considered a “pillar” like, to want for your brother what you want for yourself, to have a self accusing spirit…… Who has the authority to give a number? To place limits within ALLAH’S message?

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    1. sajjad Avatar
      sajjad

      Nobody. The law is the law. There are dozens of commandments. This 5 pillar concept is more of a comfort thing. Oh we believe in the 5 pillars so we are Muslim. Yes but do you follow God’s commandments? No. Why? Or because you have never read the Quran in your language. If your not gonna try to understand it then what is your suppose on earth?

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  12. Shehryar Durrani Avatar
    Shehryar Durrani

    Yes I am denying that which has no authenticity and which Allah orders me not to follow:

    All Hadith are fake/fabricated and as Muslim one must not follow them because all necessary instruction can be found within the Quran, without reference to the Hadith. These non-authentic stories have no value whatsoever.

    Sahih Muslim, Zuhd, 72 itself says that the prophet (SAW) forbid his followers from writing down anything he said, with the exception of the Revelation he received from Angel Jibril, the Quran.

    Koran:31:6 says: But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

    Koran:16:89: For, one Day, We shall raise from every community a leading witness against them from among themselves. And We shall call you (O Prophet) to testify regarding those whom your Message has reached. The Book We have revealed to you explains everything; a Guide and Grace and the glad tiding for Muslims.

    Repeat: The Book We have revealed to you explains everything.

    Everything means everything. Some people deny this fact and even go as far as to say that the Hadith are used for in depth research of the Koran. This excuse is just plain ridiculous because the Koran does not mention that you’d need something like hadith or similar to research on the Koran. A book that “Quote” explains everything” does not mention Hadith to be used for proper guidance to Koran.

    It was strictly forbidden to record/possess even real/true hadith of Prophet in the time of Prophet by Prophet and Four guided Caliphs, so that Muslims must follow only BOOK of Allah which is complete standalone and fully detailed BOOK.

    One of the most famous Persian historians Kazimzada writes that Persian imams [disguised Zoroastrians] forged all hadiths+sunna books from scratch.

    Do you believe in what Allah says? Quranic Verse 5:44 declares those persons “KAAFIRS” who make sharia Laws from other Books than Noble Quran. [So no any Sharia law is valid but from Quran].

    Should you build your faith on Book of Allah which is complete and fully detailed; or should you build your faith on these fabricated 2.3 millions [hearsay+gossip]=hadiths that were made 250-300 years after the death of the prophet? At the time when most sources had died off and the 4 caliphs weren’t there to stop these people. The choice is yours.

    “But among people, there are those who invest their time in HADITH which is unfounded, so as to lead those without knowledge away from the path of Allah, making mockery of it (the Koran). For such there is a shameful punishment in store. ” 31:6

    but of course, our fake scholars deny the fact and falsely claim that it merely means “mislead” whereas the proper meaning of the word is “HADITH” in translation. You really don’t need to have religious scholars to make you understand their personal version of the context. Allah says, his Book is easy to understand, is complete, and it explains itself. So I do not need any twisted Tafseer to understand it. Just needs an honest translation such as the one by Allama Dr. Muhammad Asad. You can get it for free here: https://sites.google.com/…/the-message-of-quran-with…

    During Omar RA’s caliphate the hadith were in abundance. He made sure by putting the people under oath that whatever hadith the people had in their possession ought to be brought before him. As ordered, the public submitted whatever they possessed. He then ordered to make a public bonfire of those hadiths.”
    Tubqaat ibn Sa’ad, vol.5, page 141
    Reference: http://is.gd/hTAF24

    Abu Bakar 1st Caliph gathered disciples of prophet after death of prophet and said to them:

    “You squabble among yourselves over hadith, this habit will increase as time goes by. Do not, therefore, narrate any saying of Messenger. If anyone wants to know, you can tell him the Quran is there between you and him. Whatever is allowed ought to be done, and refrain from what has been prohibited in the Quran.”

    Quoted in Tazkara tul Hifaaz e Zuhby
    Reference, read yourself at: http://is.gd/hTAF24

    “Abu Bakar RA brought collection of Hadiths and then he made a bonfire of them all.”
    Quoted in Tudween e Hadith, page 285-88
    Source: http://is.gd/hTAF24

    “Whatever words we heard from Muhammad (SAW) we noted them down in writing. One day it so happened the Messenger appeared and asked us about the subject of our writings. We replied that whatsoever we hear from his Majesty’s lips we transform it into writing. To which he said, “What! Are you compiling another book along with the book of Allah?” Meaning in other words that this cannot be made possible. He then insisted and commanded us that we ought to keep Allah’s words pure and that we must not amalgamate them with any kind of ambiguities. So we made a bonfire of our notes and parables in an open field.” (Quoted from Tudween e Hadith, a comprehensive detail of Hadith collection, page 249) – Reference-Read yourself at: http://is.gd/hTAF24

    As far as Abu Huraira is concerned, we all know he was the biggest Hadith contributor even though for an authentic source one must have at least 2 witnesses. Yet he was the only one spreading these Hadiths.

    What is funnier is that how could Abu Huraira memorize and narrate about 5374 hadiths when he accompanied the prophet for less than 3 years?

    It is well documented in history books (read references in source); that Aisha RA declared Abu Huraira a beggar and a liar who fabricates hadiths. In Volume 2 of Saheeh Muslim itself, the writer quotes ‘Aa’ishah as, ” Aboo Hurayrah is a great liar who fabricates ahaadeeth and attributes them to the holy Prophet .”

    Bukhari, Muslim, Dhahabi, Imam Abu Ja’far Iskafi, Muttaqi Hindi and others have ALL reported that the Omar Ibn Al Khattab (RA), whipped Abu-Hurairah as a result of him going too far in forging hadiths from the Prophet (pbuh) and strongly prohibited him from narrating any more till the end of his reign.

    He also had a companionship with Ka’b al-Ahbar the Jew, and narrated from him. What’s weird is that when you compare the numbers of Hadiths given by Abu Bakr (RA) by that of Abu Hurayra while keeping in mind that Abu Baker accompanied our beloved Prophet for about 23 years, while Abu Hurayra accompanied the Prophet for less than 3 years. 142 hadiths for 5374 hadiths sounds ridiculous, no offense.

    Even Aisha (RA) who stayed with the Prophet (SAW) his entire life, didn’t narrate that many hadiths as did Abu Hurayra from is >3 year accompanying. One must be blind to not see the obvious here. Not to mention his companionship with Ka’b al-Ahbar the Jew, and the fact that he narrated from him.

    SOME SAHIH BUKHARI HADITH HYPOCRISY:

    “Prophet Solomon boasted that he would impregnate one hundred women in ONE NIGHT, but only one woman became pregnant & gave birth to a half-formed child. [Book of Nikah 3:110 #226]”

    Math: Say in one night 10 hrs=600 minutes. Bukhari says, Solomon has 100 time orgasm inside the 100 women in 600 minutes. So 600/100 = 6 minutes each woman).

    Makes me wonder who was the bastard who labeled his book as Sahi anyway.

    Here are a few more:

    Bukhari trying to create doubt in the Divine Revelation:

    “Khola bint Hakeem presented herself to the Prophet. Ayesha exclaimed, The woman does not feel ashamed of giving herself to a man! However, the Prophet started receiving a revelation and Ayesha complained, O Messenger of Allah! I see that your Lord rushes to fulfill your desires. [Vol 3 pg 67 Kitabun Nikah # 102].”

    More insults and errors from the parsi’s bukhari:
    (yet over 97% Mullahs worship Bukhari blindly)

    “The Messenger (S) used to visit all nine of his wives every night. [Vol 3 pg 52 Book of Nikah, #34]. On the other hand, Bukhari repeatedly narrates that the Prophet used to stand at prayers all night, so much so that his feet used to swell. (Pls note that in same book, Bukhari writes 11 wifes not 9 as in this report – He was a Parsi criminal disguised under Muslim Name.”

    More from Bukhari:

    “Prophet used to go to his 11 wives in round & used to do intercourse with them in one hour (which mean 60/11= ~ 5 minutes each wife -11 orgasm in one hr?). What nonsense?

    Here’s one from Sahih Muslim:
    “A’isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur’an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings … (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)

    Another Example of erroneous Sahih Muslim:

    DO NOT CROSS YOUR LEG;
    Gaber Ibn Abdullah said, “The messenger of God prohibited a man from crossing one leg over the other while lying down on his back

    CROSS YOUR LEG;
    Ebada Ibn Tameem said , his father said that he saw the messenger of God lying down on his back in the mosque while crossing his legs.

    Another from Bukhari:
    Ayesha relates, The Prophet used to have intercourse with us and deeply kissed us while he was fasting. Then she shied away smiling. [Vol 1:691, Kitabus Saum, Hadith #1798 & 1799]

    Bukhari again:
    “When the Prophet married Aisha, she was 6 years old, and the marriage was consummated when she was 9 (and he was 54) (Bukhari, Book of Nikah 3:75).

    On the other hand, the Koran ties marriage to adulthood.

    Sahih Muslim 4:2127 shows Muhammad (SAW) hitting his wife Aisha on the chest so badly that it caused her pain. .

    LASTLY:
    Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 144: Narrated ‘Aisha:
    “Prophet died on the day of my usual turn at my house. Allah took him unto Him while his head was between my chest and my neck and his saliva was mixed with my saliva.”

    So according to Parsi Bukhari, Both were sucking tongues of each other a second just before death – Bakhari says This.

    What message Bukhari wants to give to people? What does this fabrication have to do with Islam and La Ilaha ill-Allah?. Do you think a person who is usually in highest pain just before death will involve in such kind of activity? Use your common sense.

    How through these fabricated reports are Bukhari, Muslims or others serving TRUE Islam????

    Even if someone says that these are the false ones, the fact that they are ALL WRITTEN BY THE SAME PERSON with this vulgar thinking, is enough for me to deny them entirely.

    In the end I would just conclude with saying that one of the most truthful Islamic Thinkers of history, German Muslim Scholar Dr. Murad Wilfried Hofmann wrote:

    “Given the fact that tens of thousands of fabricated hadiths circulated within two centuries of the Prophet’s death, we simply have to admit that the hadith and Sunnah is not as reliable as we would all wish it to be. Let us be cruelly sober: Someone clever and ruthless enough to fabricate the matn of a hadith – be it for political or “pious” reasons – would he not be clever and ruthless enough to also fabricate its isnad?”

    Allah has taken the responsibility to explain the Koran (75:19). I do not need to follow the majority or the so called experts when Allah has taken the responsibility of the Koran.

    Allah says He has revealed the Koran and He will protect it (15:9).

    Allah says that he is protector, preserver and explainer of Quran. Did he say the same about the rest? NO! Did he make it compulsory to follow the hadith? NO!

    Truth is that, that when you use your common sense and read these so labeled hadiths books fully; it becomes clear that not only they were not Muslims but were in fact THE BIGGEST ENEMIES of Islam. They have insulted Allah and Prophet + Prophets countless time in their books.

    Their hundreds of thousands of so called hadiths CLEARLY contradict Koran. But I will stop here, my duty is to explain and elaborate. The rest is up to you. You may follow these false books on false stories that came 300 years after the death of the prophet and which have no proof of authenticity whatsoever. Except the collective opinion of people whom muslims refer to as mullahs and blindly follow what they say without looking into the details.

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    1. KAS Avatar
      KAS

      NICE ARTICLE!!!

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  13. Danny Avatar
    Danny

    Have you all noticed how none of the “Quranists” ever call these guys who defend the hadith kaffirs? Where as on the other hand every single hadith follower keeps making an absolute, and very certain decision that just because someone is a Quranist, they are a kaffir? Well done, muslims, well done. These guys in the West are trying to figure out how to live in Mars, and we cannot even figure our way out of the Middle F****** East because we argue about Bukhari and those idiotic figure who shouldn’t be called human beings. The prophet was a MAN! He was fallible! He brought The Message, the beautiful, complete, and correct Message, and we argue about BUKHARI???????????????????????????

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  14. Abdulhameed Ibraheem Avatar
    Abdulhameed Ibraheem

    the time revelation or how the Quran came to present day position is not compolsury becouse the is no any verse talk on this issue in the Qur’an

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  15. Robert Johnson Avatar
    Robert Johnson

    @ Abdullah al Andalusi

    A Hadithist once said to me “We cannot only rely on the Quran for divine guidance”

    “Really?” I said “The Quran does not say we need other sources for divine guidance.”

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    1. Abdullah al Andalusi Avatar
      Abdullah al Andalusi

      The Quran tells us many times to refer to external sources to it, in order to pursue its objectives. For example, observing the natural world, asking those who know if you know not, obeying the Messenger Muhammed (saaw) who speaks from divine inspiration, leaving matter touching public safety to those in authority to investigate before forming an opinion etc etc

      The Quran came as a GUIDE, not to be an exclusive DATABASE without divinely revealed knowledge elsewhere. For example, you wouldn’t know how to pray if it weren’t for the Quran telling us to obey the Messenger (saaw), or in him is the best example. And before you say ‘nothing has been left out of the book of the Quran’ – I agree, no guidance has been left out of the book of the Quran, it is a guidance for EVERYTHING.

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      1. Robert Johnson Avatar
        Robert Johnson

        Thank you for your reply.

        The Quran does not say that there is divinely revealed sources of information alongside the Quran. God says the Quran is explained in detail (6:114).

        Would people be able to perform prayer/salat simply on information in the Quran? The answer is yes. We don’t need a highly detailed method of how to pray to be able to do it.

        64:12 shows that obeying the messenger is directly linked to him delivering the message, which is his only duty. So obeying the messenger is to obey the message he delivered. By obeying the message we are obeying Allah and his messenger. So obeying Allah and obeying the messenger is one and the same thing, not two separate things.

        Chapter 33 of the Quran said Muhammad was a good example specifically in the context of war because he was steadfast and not wanting to flee like the hypocrites.

        Muhammad cannot show us the right path (72:21). 66:1 shows that Muhammad can say something wrong from his personal desire, so not everything he said is divinely inspired. 41:6 says Muhammad is only a person like us.

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      2. idesireranks Avatar
        idesireranks

        Robert Johnson your lies are refuted here. And perish in your falsehood for you claim to believe in the Quran when you do not.

        http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_the_only_duty_of_the_messenger_is_to_simply_deliver_the_qur_an

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  16. OI Avatar
    OI

    People were not able to perform prayer just based on the Quranic verses.
    The Quran is sufficient, however, it asks you to look at the sunnah/Hadith of the Prophet SAW

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    1. Robert Johnson Avatar
      Robert Johnson

      The Quran does not say to look at the sunnah/hadith of the Prophet.

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      1. Dlshad Avatar
        Dlshad

        There is a simple answer to all this. The quran is protected. Everything before and after quran is not.

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  17. 1tawnystranger Avatar
    1tawnystranger

    Boy, you lot are still going on about this? For God’s sake, all of you just accept that the ahadiyth are fallible but useful for background understanding. If they were totally trustworthy why would there be classifications of sahiyh, hasan, da’if, etc? And why did the ancient scholars disagree on what was and what wasn’t reliable?

    If you want to say the Qur’an’s infallible I’m not stopping you. But… if it’s the infallible word of Allah, why would it NEED an external source to explain its rulings (as hadiyth-believers claim)? Just saying.

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  18. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
    Mohammed Darwish

    I’m sorry Quranists, your case can’t win, your arguments are easily debunked for the following simple reasons:

    1- Quran (of which you claim to follow strictly) says: 59:7 (وما آتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا)
    (And whatever the Messenger has given you – take; and what he has forbidden you – refrain from.)
    … Did you notice? … Whatever the Messenger has given you … The verse didn’t limit it to Quran only but “whatever” … of which includes the following:
    a- Prophet’s (PBUH) sayings/speeches/announcements .
    b- Prophet’s actions of acceptance and rejections.
    c- Prophet’s gestures of acceptance and rejections.
    d- Events happening around the Prophet (PBUH) and his acceptance (ie doesn’t reject or keep silent) or vice versa.
    ALL THESE ARE CALLED “SUNNAH”
    >>> So, Mr./Ms. Quranist if you deny this, then you deny verse 59:7, and many other similar verses.

    2- The “Quranists” argument of which “Hadith is fallible” just reflects how ignorant they are about HADITH SCIENCE. How carefully Hadith was collected/filtered/classified. If you study the Science of Hadith, you’ll conclude whatever classified SAHEEH is 100% authentic from the mouth (or acts) of the Prophet (PBUH) indeed. I’ll not dig further here.
    >>> You go and educate yourself further on this topic (Science of Hadith).

    3- Who claims that Hadiths that were narrated by singles ( آحاد ahaad) are not acceptable, then that’s ignorance as well. Since news/narrations told by singles are absolutely acceptable in Islam. Based on following events:
    a- When prayer was first towards Jerusalem, then Allah orders the Prophet (PBUH) to change prayer direction to Mecca, the Prophet (PBUH) sent ONE SAHABA ONLY to till the news to the second Masjid in Medina, occupants accepted new news and immediately turned towards Mecca … news that were narrated to them by ONE PERSON (ie. SINGLE)!
    b- Prophet (PBUH), in many occasions, sent ONE only messenger to the near by tribes and kings.
    >>> Therefore; narration by SINGLES is totally OK in ISLAM, as it was accepted and practiced by the Prophet (PBUH) himself.

    4- One last refutation using bare LOGIC (common sense):
    If a Quranist claims that no need for Hadith to understand Islam, then Quranist is actually claiming his/her explanation of the Quran is enough. Of which means he/she gave themselves the right to explain/interpret the verses of Quran. So if you gave yourself the right to explain/interpret the Quran and act/worship accordingly, then Prophet (PBUH) has a stronger right (than you) to do so! … doesn’t he? … Well! if you answered with “YES” (of which you’ve must did) … guess what?! … Explaining/Interpreting Quran to Muslims was one of the responsibilities/duties of the Prophet (PBUH) ordered by Allah (SWT).
    Quran 16:44 (وأنزلنا إليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم ولعلهم يتفكرون) (And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.)
    >>> Do you still think such explanations/interpretations to the Quran made by the Prophet (PBUH) will be allowed by Allah to get lost with age?! … Thanks God … It was preserved to Muslims in the form of Sunnah.

    5- Allah (SWT) expresses in Quran that the Prophet (PBUH) is aught to teach Muslims two things. Book And Wisdom. Two different terms separated with “AND” … The Book is obviously the Quran. And what’s the Wisdom if it’s not the Sunnah!
    Quran 3:164 (Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.)
    Quran 62:2 (It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom – although they were before in clear error)
    >>> Allah (SWT) promised to preserve the Book … So, How about the Wisdom, He ordered the Prophet to teach the believers as well, would He allow it to get lost?!

    Thanks,,,

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    1. Muslim Avatar
      Muslim

      Hello brother Mohammed Darwish

      Following you thread, i had appreciated the dept of your knowledge, and sincerity with which you express your views but you have hopelessly fail to keep up that standard in this particular post of yours.

      One common way of corrupting the meaning of a Quranic truth is to isolate one verse, or part of a verse, from the verses that come before it or after it. By doing so, a totally misleading meaning can be obtained.

      You tried to deceive the people by misquoting and misrepresenting the message of ALLAH to satisfy your failing efforts to support AL-Hadith.

      For the sincere students, LET US READ THE VERSE in its entirety from the previous verses and SEE what the verse is talking about.

      Sura 59, verses 6-7:

      “Whatever God restored for His messenger was not the result of your war efforts, whether you fought on horses or on foot. God is the One who sends His messengers against whomever He wills. God is Omnipotent. THAT WHICH GOD GIVES AS SPOIL UNTO HIS MESSENGER FROM THE DEFEATED TOWNS it is for God and His messenger and for the relatives, the orphans and the needy and the traveling alien. Thus, it will not remain monopolized by the strong among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and refrain from what he withholds from you. You shall reverence God. God is strict in enforcing retribution.”

      By reading these glorious Quranic words we arrive at the following important issues:

      1- These two verses (59:6-7) speak very clearly about the spoils of war and nothing else. The words “that which God gives as spoils from the defeated towns” confirm that the subject is the spoils of war.

      2- More important the source of what is given to the people by the messenger “what the messenger asigns to you” is God and not the messenger. This is confirmed with the words “what God restored for His messenger”. What this means is that whatever is given to the believers, and even though is given by the messenger, yet the source is still God. The spoils of war are given to the messenger in order that he may distribute them in accordance to God’s rules.

      3- We read that the messenger is told specifically how to distribute these spoils of war: “for the relatives, the orphans, the needy, and the traveling alien”.

      4- Following these words, God says that the believers should accept what the messenger gives them (of the spoils) and refrain from what is not given to them. In other words, God is telling the believers to accept the way the messenger distributes these spoils of war without grumbling.

      5- The words “so it would not remain monopolised by the strong among you” is further conclusive proof that God is not speaking about the hadith or sunna of the messenger but is speaking about material gains, i.e the spoils of war.

      So brother, WHY WOULD YOU MISS THIS VERY SIMPLE NON-MUSTAHABI verse of the Quran or you were blinded by your MANMADE fabrications??

      POINT 2&3

      YOUR SECOND POINT ~~ LET ME ASK A SIMPLE QUESTION! YOU SAY THEY ARE INFALIBLE, Well the following examples below proofs you wrong

      Let me share a very TINY percentage of FALLIBILITY in the hadith books!!!

      ——————————————————-
      Contradictions in “SAHIH” hadiths
      ——————————————————-
      Did Muhammad see Allah?

      No

      Narrated Masruq:
      ‘Aisha said, “If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: ‘No vision can grasp Him.’ (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: ‘None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah.’”
      Sahih Bukhari 1:4:159

      Yes
      It is narrated on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas that he (the Holy Prophet) saw (Allah) with, his heart
      Sahih Muslim 1:334
      Wudhu

      You should wash once

      Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
      The Prophet performed ablution by washing the body parts only once.
      Sahih Bukhari 1:4:159

      You should wash twice

      Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Zaid:
      The Prophet performed ablution by washing the body parts twice.
      Sahih Bukhari 1:4:160

      You should wash thrice
      Narrated Humran: (the slave of ‘Uthman) I saw ‘Uthman bin ‘Affan asking for a tumbler of water (and when it was brought) he poured water over his hands and washed them thrice and then put his right hand in the water container and rinsed his mouth, washed his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out. then he washed his face and forearrlns up to the elbows thrice, passed his wet hands over his head and washed his feet up to the ankles thrice. Then he said, “Allah’s Apostle said ‘If anyone Performs ablution like that of mine and offers a two-rak’at prayer during which he does not think of anything else (not related to the present prayer) then his past sins will be forgiven.’ ” After performing the ablution ‘Uthman said, “I am going to tell you a Hadith which I would not have told you, had I not been compelled by a certain Holy Verse (the sub narrator ‘Urwa said: This verse is: “Verily, those who conceal the clear signs and the guidance which we have sent down…)” (2:159). I heard the Prophet saying, ‘If a man performs ablution perfectly and then offers the compulsory congregational prayer, Allah will forgive his sins committed between that (prayer) and the (next) prayer till he offers it.
      Sahih Bukhari 1:4:161
      Do evil omens exist?

      No.

      Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There is
      no transitive disease, no evil omen, no safar, no hama…
      Sahih Muslim 26:5508

      Yes

      Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Umar: Allah’s Messenger said, “there is neither ‘Adha nor Tiyara,
      and an evil omen is only in three: a horse, a woman and a house.”
      Sahih Bukhari 7:71:666
      Who was Dajjal?

      A beast
      There was a beast with long thick hair (and because of these) they could not distinguish his face from his back
      Sahih Muslim 41:7028

      A boy
      Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Munkadir: I saw Jabir bin ‘Abdullah swearing by Allah that Ibn Sayyad was the Dajjal
      Sahih Bukhari 9:92:453
      Protection from Dajjal

      The first ten al-Kahf verses
      Abu Darda’ reported Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: If anyone learns by heart the first ten verses of the Surah al-Kahf, he will be protected from the Dajja
      Sahih Muslim 4:1766

      Or the end al-Kahf?
      This hadith has been transmitted by Qatada with the same chain of transmitters. But Shu’ba (one of the narrators) said: At the end of Surah al-Kahf, but Hammam said: At the beginning of Surah al-Kahf.
      Sahih Muslim 4:1767
      Two rak’ats after Asr

      It’s recommended to offer two rak’ats

      Narrated ‘Aisha: Allah’s Messenger never missed two Rakat before the Fajr prayer and after the Asr
      prayer openly and secretly
      Sahih Bukhari 1:10:566

      It’s forbidden to offer two rak’ats

      Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Messenger forbade the offering of two prayers: 1. after the morning prayer till the sunrises.
      2. after the ‘Asr prayer till the sun sets.
      Sahih Bukhari 1:10:566
      Dajjal blind in which eye?

      Right eye
      Ibn Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). made a mention of Dajjil in the presence of the people and said: Allah is not one-eyed and behold that Dajjal is blind of the right eye and his eye would be like a floating grape.
      Sahih Muslim 41:7005

      Left eye
      Hudhalfa reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Dajjal is blind of left eye with thick hair and there would be a garden and fire w
      ith him and his fire would be a garden and his garden would be fire.
      Sahih Muslim 41:7010
      Standing while drinking something
      ———————————————————
      ——————————————————— Now, Do you still think hadith are infallible???????.

      POINT 4 ~~ Your point here is a none starter.

      We read other books (Medicine, law, literature, History etc). WITH THE QURAN GIVING A STEP BY STEP APPROACH ON HOW TO STUDY IT, How can you go wrong if you obey Allah??

      The Quran says this about itself, THE QUESTION TO YOU IS THIS, DO you Believe the assertions made by the Quran below????

      (1) A Clear Guidance (Huda)

      (2) Clear Proof (Burhan)

      (3) Explained in Detail (Fussilat)

      (4) Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)

      (5) The Ultimate Scale – Balance (Mizaan)

      (6) Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)

      (7) Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)

      I think she summarizes it all ~ http://www.ted.com/talks/lesley_hazelton_on_reading_the_koran?language=en

      Like

      Reply
      1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
        Mohammed Darwish

        Thanks brother “Muslim” for your comment, and I reply with the following…

        ABOUT POINT 1:

        My interpretation of Verse 59:7 “And whatever the Messenger has given you – take; and what he forbidden you – refrain from” … IS NOT cherry picking (out of context) for the following reasons:

        a- Interpreting this part of the verse “And whatever the Messenger has given you – take; and what he forbidden you – refrain from” … AS-IS is completely OK. If you noticed there is a WAQF PERMISSION SIGN (Stopping or Connecting options are equally available to the recieter) at the beginning of this section signaling a new paragraph within the verse.

        b- Quran contains plenty of verses that has multiple paragraphs within of which each paragraph points to a completely different subject! So falling within the same verse doesn’t necessarily make it the same subject.

        c- Why you didn’t consider the reason of distributing War Lootings “so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you” … is the closure of the previous war looting rule! … Rendering the next paragraph a fresh subject. … What I want to say here is that you saying THIS PART MUST FALL UNDER THE SAME CONTEXT OF WAR LOOTING, AND NOT OTHER OPTION! … is in fact, WRONG! … IT MAY BUT MUSTN’T … or else you need to prove that.

        d- You can’t FALSIFY the interpretation that makes this part of the verse A NEW CONTEXT CARRYING NEW TEACHINGS TO THE UMMAH.

        e- In fact, you putting it within the context of WAR LOOTINGS RULES is linguistically weak! … Since using the word “WHATEVER” while Allah means “War Lootings” which is a part of “WHATEVER” … is a linguistic technical mistake! … And since the Quran is bullet proof, it puts us in front of a stronger more robust interpretation! … The word “Whatever the Messenger has given you” … means WHATEVER literally! … and that includes the Sunnah on all of it’s forms, spoken, acted or gestured by the Prophet (PBUH).

        f- Did you hear about the rule in Quran interpretation science that say, Quran always interprets according to the GENERAL MEANING NOT TO THE SPECIFIC INCIDENT. This rule supports my interpretation … and by the way, my interpretation is the one adopted by most of the approved Quran Interpreters along Islamic history.

        I BROUGHT YOU ONLY VERSE 59:7 just as an example of the many verses in the Quran that order us to follow the Prophet (PBUH) Sunnah. However, if verse 59:7 wasn’t enough for you, I’ll put you some more:

        VERSE 3:32 “Say, “Obey Allah and the Messenger.” But if they turn away – then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.”

        VERSE 3:132 “And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.”

        VESRE 4:80 “He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away – We have not sent you over them as a guardian”

        VERSE 5:92 “And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away – then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification.”

        VERSE 8:20 “O you who have believed, obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn from him while you hear [his order].”

        VERSE 8:46 “And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute and [thus] lose courage and [then] your strength would depart; and be patient. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.”

        VERSE 24:54 “Say, “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away – then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification.”

        I WILL STOP HERE IN THIS POINT, HOWEVER, THERE ARE STILL MANY MORE VERSES THAT ORDERS MUSLIMS TO OBEY ALLAH AND OBEY THE PROPHET (PBUH) … I’ll put them for on request.

        —————————————————————————-

        ABOUT POINT 2 & 3:

        Oh boy! … You’ve turned the CONCEPT OF SUNNAH upside down!
        What you understood as “FALLIBLE” is, in fact, “AUTHENTICITY”!
        What you understood as “NEGATIVE SIDE OF SUNNAH” is, in fact, “THE POSITIVE SIDE”!
        What you understood as “UGLINESS” is, in fact, the “BEAUTY”!
        What you understood as “CONTRADICTIONS” are, in fact, “VERSIONS”

        YES! Ablution (wodoo) is mentioned in a Hadith ONE TIME on each organ and in other Hadith it’s THREE. … and YES! The prophet said it in both versions! … So practice both if you well.
        I, myself, enjoy doing ablution some times in ONES and other times in THREES.
        I, myself, enjoy Janazah Prayer (Prayer on dead Muslim) some times making Salam to the RIGHT SIDE ONLY and other times Salam to BOTH SIDES RIGHT AND LEFT as Sunnah mentions that the Prophet had practiced it in both way.

        Do you know what the Prophet (PBUH) answered every “contradicting” question during HAJJ, with “YES”!
        Some asked him, “Can I kill my sheep after Shaving my head?” The Prophet answered with “YES”.
        Some asked the opposite, “Can I shave my head after I kill my sheep?” The Prophet again answered with “YES”!

        You can pray “Shafa and Watr” either in 2 then 1 … or in a continuous 3 rakat with one shahadah … or in a continuous 3 rakat with two shahadah!
        If you are a traveler, and you reach to your destination (of which is not your home) … You can Shorten the prayers (Duhur to 2, Asr to 2, Isha to 2 rakat) … for 3 days only … or for 1 week! … or for 30 days! … All different permissions were said by the Prophet (PBUH)!

        Brother, you need to change your perception all the way from root. Sunnah is all about VERSIONS. And Yes! … If It’s in an authentic SAHIH then all were said by the Prophet. And no problem with that. But in fact, it’s the awesomeness of Islam, being not a rigid block. It’s the mercy of Allah for us to choose the easiest practice of worship to us from within the multi-versions that reached us.

        PLEASE NOTE THAT IN IBADAT (WORSHIPPING ACTS) YOU’LL ENCOUNTER MANY VERSIONS OF WHICH IT’S OK TO PRACTICE ONE OR ALL VERSIONS. HOWEVER, IN AQEEDAH, YOU’LL NEVER FIND MULTI-VERSIONS BUT ONLY ONE … YOU’LL NEVER FIND IN BUKHARI A HADEETH THAT SAYS “GOD IS ONE” … THEN IN OTHER HADEETH THAT “THERE ARE TWO gods!” …

        Differentiating between both concepts (AQEEDA and ACT OF WORSHIP) is what lacks you, brother.

        ABOUT DAJJAL:
        Pls. note that subject is about “Future” … “Unseen” … “Ghayeb – Unknowns” … and Yes, we as Muslims shall believe all VERSIONS of HADITH. Both, the 1 eye Hadith and the 2 eyes Hadith. … Brother, that’s not a contradiction, it’s a description of the multi-versions of the Dajjal. Remember, that he is the Dajjal! … and since Hadith mentioned both VERSIONS then we shall believe that Dajjal has the power to appear in both!

        AT THE CONCLUSION OF THIS POINT:

        Do you think you are more “picky” than Imam Bukhari?
        Do you think you had the “sharp eyes” to catch such “horrible contradictions” while Imam Bukhari failed to?

        The answer is: NOT AT ALL! …
        Imam Bukhari dedicated all of his life to such mission, collecting, filtering and classifying the Hadith. And he must have noticed such DIFFERENT VERSIONS!
        And putting all versions in his book proves one thing! … HOW SYSTEMATIC AND STRICT HE WAS IN COLLECTING THE HADITH! … If narration ,all the way back to the Prophet (PBUH), proved to be perfect, then such Hadith must be put in the book regardless of the content.
        Imam Bukhari’s mission was confirming the source not criticizing the content! … Imam Muslim’s mission was the same too …

        No such professionalism appeared in history when it comes to trace and record someone’s speeches like the speeches of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). And that’s not by luck, but guidance from Allah in order to preserve this deen, ISLAM.

        SO REST ASSURE MY BROTHER, WHEN YOU READ BUKHARI BOOK, YOU’RE, IN FACT, LISTENING TO PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) TALKING TO YOU …

        ————————————————————————————-

        ABOUT POINT 4:

        That’s too dangerous to put yourself in the seat of Quran Interpreter! … Take care … If you don’t have enough RELIGIOUS ACADEMIC BACKGROUND this might take you waaaaaaaay faaaaar from Islam.

        You still need to a scholar (Alim) to interpret you the Quran. OK! Let’s agree that there are some easy parts to interpret, and there are biology and physics parts waiting for biologists and physicist to interpret and find the “treasures” hidden within … BUT STILL THE VAST MAJORITY OF TH QURAN NEEDS TO A RELIGION ACADMIC SCHOOLAR TO INTERPRET.

        And to interpret the QURAN, you need to master ARABIC LANGUAGE. If you are not an ARABIC LANGUAGE EXPERT then don’t through yourself in the OCEAN OF INTERPRETING THE QURAN. But depend on the Experts.

        May Allah protect all of us from being the people mentioned by these verses:
        VERSES 25:43-44 “Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him? (43) Or do you think that most of them hear or reason? They are not except like livestock. Rather, they are [even] more astray in [their] way. (44)”

        Thanks …

        Like

  19. Muslim Avatar
    Muslim

    Thanks for you response too..

    I Have exhausted the issue on talking verses out of context. YOU FAIL TO SEE your manifest error. I WONDER how you will indulge a christian WHO WILL ENGAGE all mental Gymnastic to force the interpretation of the bible to support doctrines like trinity and divinity of Christ.

    You seem to have a whole science of how to interprete the quran. METHODS THAT ARE REPLETE of ADVICE from a Quranic perspectic but rather you obvious almost idolatory reverence for scholars. LET ME DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT, No where in the Quran has it tied the condition of faith to being a scholar. On the contrary, WE WER WARNED ON THE DAMAGE THE SCHOLARS of Jews and christians did to their faith. WE HAVE PhD Holders in islamic matters and yet they aint muslims. NON-Muslims who have memorised the ENTIRE Quran. SO your assertion of SCHOLARS, SCHOLARS , SCHOLARS is BASELESS.

    God is the originator of his religion. HE PROMISED TO TEACH IT TO WHOM HE WILL.

    God promised the QURAN IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND. if you dont believe this simple verse. THEN YOU WILL always think YOU NEED A LIFETIME scholarly skill to grasp the meaning of the Quran, But the criteria are all within the two bindings of the Quran. YOU JUST BLINDED BY PILES of scholarly(either sunni of shia depending on which brand you belong to.

    The Quran was for the entire world, A sincere believer in ALLAH and open minded person will grasp the meaning of the Quran which is consistent with the Quran.

    Additionally too. I am surprised at your concept of generalizing that interpretations should be given general meanings ~~ Once again this is from the REASONING of your scholars. Its quit unfortunate that YOU have relinquished the INSTRUCTION by the Quran. TO READ, PONDER and REASON, YOU have left it to the scholars.

    i did not intend to talk much, seeing that you are ready to come up with any theory to defend your soo called hadith, I SHALL LEAVE YOU WILL THESE HADITHS.

    Tell me what they are, since the one on dajjal is futuristic and according to your logic “contradictions” can be accepted.

    AND WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE HADITHS BELOW.

    SOME HADITHS THAT LIE AGAINST THE QURAN!!!!! ~~ They claim some part of the Quran are missing!! This are SUPPOSSED ‘authentic’ Narrations!!!

    See for yourself!!

    Sahih al-Bukhari 5005—Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”

    Sahih Muslim 2286

    Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .

    This shows that entire chapters of the Qur’an were forgotten.

    Sunan ibn Majah 1944.

    it was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

    According to Aisha, Muhammad recited this verse as follows: “Guard strictly (the five obligatory) prayers, and the middle Salat, and Salat Al-Asr. And stand before Allah with obedience” (Jami at-Tirmidhi 2982). Hence, the phrase “and Salat Al-Asr” is missing from modern editions.

    WHAT LIES ARE THESE, BY THE SOO CALLED Hadith books?? And you still defend them?? Oh My brother??

    I have more Horrible things that the Hadith books recorded in the NAME OF OUR BELOVED prophet.

    Like

    Reply
    1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Thanks “Muslim” for your comments…
      I’ll, this time, put some of your quotes and reply them for better focus on the issue.

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “METHODS THAT ARE REPLETE of ADVICE from a Quranic perspectic but rather you obvious almost idolatory reverence for scholars”

      >>> I reply:
      I wonder how this would pass the criticism of LOGIC!
      It’s trivial to seek the advice and interpretation of religion scholars when we need to understand our religion. Or else, we shouldn’t seek a Physics Professor when we need to understand Physics, and (according to your logic) we shall say, “This would be considered idolatory reverence for Physicists”!

      If you get sick, wouldn’t you be seeking a Doctor?
      If you encounter a toothache, wouldn’t you be seeking a Dentist?
      If you need to replace your car brake pads, wouldn’t you be seeking a Mechanic?

      But here is the point, WE STILL CAN DIFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE GOOD SCHOLAR AND THE BAD.
      I’m not a Mechanic, but I still can feel and judge the Mechanic working on my car being a good one or just a beginner, even before I see his final result!

      Maybe that’s what confuses you! …
      Your ability to judge the skill of the Mechanic working on your car DOESN’T MEAN YOU DON’T NEED ONE! … Same token, our ability to judge the knowledge of a religious scholar doesn’t mean we don’t need one!

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “LET ME DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT, No where in the Quran has it tied the condition of faith to being a scholar.”

      >>> I reply:
      That’s WRONG bro! …

      This is a direct refutation to your assertion from the Quran itself as it highlights that scholars (who have knowledge) are the most people fearing God! ie. Condition of Faith.
      Quran 35:28 “And among people and moving creatures and grazing livestock are various colors similarly. Only those fear Allah , from among His servants, who have knowledge. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Forgiving.”

      Quran also highlights the importance of referring to Scholars for seeking the knowledge if we don’t know:
      Quran 16:43 “And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know.”
      Quran 21:7 “And We sent not before you, [O Muhammad], except men to whom We revealed [the message], so ask the people of the message if you do not know.”

      Quran also highlights the importance of seeking those “who-can-draw-correct-conclusions” (ie. Scholars) opinion/advice in times of fear and fitna. (This makes it in times of peace even more important).
      Quran 4:83 “And when there comes to them information about [public] security or fear, they spread it around. But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known about it. And if not for the favor of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have followed Satan, except for a few.”

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “On the contrary, WE WER WARNED ON THE DAMAGE THE SCHOLARS of Jews and christians did to their faith.”

      >>> I reply:
      If some Jewish and Christian scholars did lie to their followers, it doesn’t mean all scholars would! BTW, why do you ignore the verses mentioning the good and faithful Jewish and Christian Scholars?!

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “WE HAVE PhD Holders in islamic matters and yet they aint muslims. NON-Muslims who have memorised the ENTIRE Quran. SO your assertion of SCHOLARS, SCHOLARS , SCHOLARS is BASELESS”

      >>> I reply:
      Cool, but this doesn’t mean Muslim Scholars are liars! Or unreliable!
      Your quote even proves my point of scholars being important or else why Non-Muslims had to be scholars on Islam?! … Moreover, your point is aimless … You can be a Muslim scholar of Christianity. Nothing wrong with that!

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “either sunni of shia depending on which brand you belong to”

      >>> I reply:
      Shia’s books of “Hadith” is NO WAY TO BE COMPAIRABLE TO SUNNA BOOKS OF HADITH. Their books suffer from severe holes of authenticity. Most likely similar to the way Bible was compiled into today’s book! …

      In Shia books of “Hadith” you’ll find many of what so called Broken Narration Chain. It says B heard from A … WHILE:
      a- Either B or A is known to be a liar.
      b- Or, B never met A. (ie. B lived his entire life in the city of Kofa/Iraq and never visited Medina while A lived in Medina and never visited Kofa of which makes the probability of B hearing from A practically impossible). A broken narration chain!
      c- Or, A died 200 years before B was even born! Again, a broken narration chain.
      d- Or, either A or B is, simply, an unkown person. No biography. No witnesses. No proof that he even had existed.

      Objective Shia scholars themselves (like Professor Ali Sharee’ati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Shariati) once declared in one of his books that 75% of Hadiths brought by the Shia most important Hadith Reference (AL-KAFI) suffer severe narration problems and 95% of the Hadiths brought by the second most important Shia Hadith Reference (BIHAR AL-ANWAR) suffer from crucial narration problems!

      Such horrible holes in what so called “Hadith” books in Shia sect are never found in Sunna’s. And you calling Sunna and Shia sects as “brands” tells me a lot about how deep your knowledge on that matter is!

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “God promised the QURAN IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND.”

      >>> I reply:
      False! … God promised Quran will be easy to be read/recited (in Arabic) and to be remembered (for those willing to keep it in hearts). Quran 54:17 “And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?”

      Don’t get me wrong here, some verses are still straight forward and easy to be understood. But your claim Quran is promised by Allah to be easy to be “UNDERSTOOD” is, simply, FALSE! … Nothing supports such claim. Neither a Quranic Verse nor a Hadith from Sunnah.

      I guess you’re mixed up with the many calls in Quran to investigate and research its meanings!
      Quran declared in many verses that only those having open investigative objective minds can reach its meanings. This proves Quran isn’t that easy to be understood as you claim! I’m not sure your sources for such claim are but the only thing I’m sure of, it’s not from the Quran, Mr. Quranist!

      Even Quran, itself, debunks your claim (being easy to be understood)!
      Quran 38:29 “[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded.” …
      Quran mentions a category of people “those of understanding”, this implies the existence of the category of “those of no understanding”, isn’t it?

      Didn’t believe yet? … then read this … Quran 47:24 “Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?” … Oops! … It seems that there are some people with locks upon their hearts! … That makes sense and explains why not 100% of Earth’s population are Muslims!

      So, Quran being not easy to be understood, you might seek the help of an authorized scholar. That would be much better and safer for you my friend.

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “TO READ, PONDER and REASON, YOU have left it to the scholars.”

      >>> I reply:
      Not at all. I still can differentiate between a good and a bad “Mechanic”, provided that I’m not one of them. You can too. But again, this doesn’t mean we don’t need them.

      However, in order to be objective in my reply:
      Quran Interpretations will always remain dynamic and refreshable. The Prophet (PBUH) in one of his Hadiths had described the Quran being having many secrets waiting to be discovered, new Quranic explorations will never end, until the judgment day … that makes Quran Interpretations are exposed to be changed with time (words will stay the same). Quran isn’t rigid or static. It will remain fresh until the judgement day. BUT WAIT A MINUTE HERE! … WHO ARE THOSE GOING TO EXPLOSE SUCH SECRETS AND COME UP WITH NEW INTERPRETATIONS? … FOR YOUR SURPRISE, THEY, STILL, ARE THE SCHOLARS.

      YOU NEED A SCHOLAR SKILL TO DIVE DEEP AND GET NEW PEARLS FROM THE QURAN ENLESS OCEAN. YOU STILL NEED TO BE A BIOLIGIST TO UNCOVER A NEW BIOLOGICAL SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE MIRACLE IN QURAN. YOU NEED TO BE A PHYSICIST IN ORDER TO UNCOVER AN ASTROUNOMICAL SCIENTIFIC KNOWLDEGE MIRALCE IN QURAN. BOTTOM LINE, YOU CAN’T AVOID THE NEED TO A SCHOLAR/EXPERT.

      Again, pal, to refresh the interpretation of the Quran, it takes a scholar/expert, and it happened many times along Islamic History. Especially in the 20th century moving along the scientific boom in the West!

      ———————————————————————————–

      >>> You wrote:
      “SOME HADITHS THAT LIE AGAINST THE QURAN!!!!! ~~ They claim some part of the Quran are missing!! This are SUPPOSSED ‘authentic’ Narrations!!!”

      >>> I reply:
      YES DUDE, THEY ARE PERFECTLY AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS, TRUE AND QURAN COMPLIANT!

      Referring to the fact that some verses in the Quran (during the life of the Prophet PBUH) had, by Allah’s Order, encountered some changes, deletions or superseded with other verses. The process of which is called ABROGATION: Nasikh (ناسخ), ie. Superseding, and Mansookh (منسوخ), ie. Superseded.

      Some of the abrogated (ie. Superseded) verses were permitted by Allah to STAY IN THE BOOK and some were FORCED OUT OF THE BOOK. Those fall in the latter category were said by Allah that He will make people FORGET THEM!

      Quran 2:106 “We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?”

      THOSE COMPANIONS WHO KEPT ABROGATED VERSES IN THEIR HEARTS:
      Like Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari, Allah had forced them to FORGET such verses!
      I’ll quote the same Hadith you brought in your last reply:
      Sahih Muslim 2286: “We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it …… And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .”

      Isn’t it a miracle, my friend? … In Verse 2:106 Allah says “cause it to be forgotten” … and here is Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari (one of the closest companions to the Prophet PBUH and a famous Quran Heart Keeper of whom unlikely to forget a single word from the Quran not to say entire chapters) declares “and I have forgotten it”!!! … Isn’t it a Miracle? … Did Allah fulfill verse 2:106? … YES INDEED.

      AND, THOSE WHO KEPT ABROGATED VERSES IN WRITTEN FORMS:
      Allah had guided both HUMANS AND NON-HUMANS to destroy such written verses in order not to prevent them from finding their way back to the Quran.

      1- ALLAH GUIDANCE TO HUMANS:
      Expressed with what the 3rd Khalif (Othman Bin Affan) did when he compiled the Quran and ordered from all Sahaba to bring any other written form/papers/documents of Quran, whatever is written within, and burned them to ashes.

      2- ALLAH GUIDANCE TO NON-HUMANS:
      I’ll quote the same Hadith you brought within your last reply … Sunan ibn Majah 1944: it was narrated that Aishah said: “… and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.” …

      Don’t tell me that a sheep enters the Prophet’s house and heads straight to such document and eat it, was mare luck, my friend! … It’s obvious it was sent by Allah to accomplish the mission of removing a written form of abrogated verse(s). THAT’S NO LESS THAN A MIRACLE.

      Allah declared that Quran will be preserved and guarded by His Power … Quran 15:9 “Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian.”

      Allah also declared that compiling the Quran is ON HIM as well! … Quran 75:17 “Indeed, upon Us is its collection [in your heart] and [to make possible] its recitation.”

      So, when Sunnah declares that some companions of the Prophet PBUH had forgotten some verses of the Quran causing them to disappear from the face of the earth … or a sheep ate a document that contained some abrogated verses causing them to disappear … it makes perfect sense and renders and Quran compliant (ie. With verse 2:106).

      ———————————————————————————–

      AT LAST:
      Please put to me all other “horrible things” that makes such “false” barrier between you and the Sunnah. Let’s untie the knots one after the other.

      Thanks …

      Like

      Reply
      1. Simply Muslim, aka Quranist Avatar
        Simply Muslim, aka Quranist

        Your Question:
        AT LAST:
        Please put to me all other “horrible things” that makes such “false” barrier between you and the Sunnah. Let’s untie the knots one after the other.

        Answer:

        I provide a link to all truth seekers: http://www.free-minds.org/hadith-conspiracy-distortion-islam

        The more you argue, the more the truth will come out. Allah said in his FURQUAN and only LAW book that Man argues a lot. Please answer the issues discussed below to begin with and if and when you do, myself and other ‘quranists’ will come back with some more.

        Out of the books that the majority of Muslims believe in as being authentic, Sahih Bukhari is presented as being the MOST authentic. However a analysis of the history of the books shows that it is anything but authentic. Imam Bokhari the collector of the narration lived in a period over 230 years after the death of the prophet. Out of the 600,000 Hadith (narrations) that he collected, which were initially attributed to the prophet, he threw out as fabrication 592,700 of them and kept only 7300 as being genuine. They further reduce to 2762 Hadith after repetition.
        The margin of error in these numbers is so great, that any rational inquirer can see that accepting the book of Bukhari as containing all authentic Hadith or even a majority of authentic Hadith is stupidity. Yet the majority of Muslims unquestionable accept it as “gospel” truth!

        There are many scientific and logical errors and contradictions in the Book of Bukhari, as well as the other books. Some examples:

        1.The prophet according to Bukhari in one of the narration tells his companion Abu- Dharr Ghafari that the sun goes around the earth, in the apparent description that he gives (Hadith 421, pg. 283, vol. 4 of M.Muhsin Khan’s translation of Sahih Bukhari).

        This erroneous view was very popular at the time Bukhari compiled his collection. However this is absurd, we know today that the earth rotates around the sun, proven by scientific evidence. The Koran not only corrected this erroneous notion but also gave an accurate description of a round earth centuries before scientists discovered it.

        2.According to Hadith no disease is contagious [Adwa]. This as we all know is inaccurate. What about the common cold and viruses like Ebola etc. [Hadith 649, page 435, volume7]

        3.Books of Hadith contain many home-remedies, according to ideas prevalent at that time, which are scientifically absurd. The Hadith mentions there being a cure for every ailment in black cumin seed [Hadith 591, pg.400, vol 7]. This is evidently not true. Can it cure cancer or AIDS, not to mention even the common cold? Hadith suggests that we drink “camel-urine” to recuperate after an illness [Hadith 590, pg.399, vol.7]. This is disgusting, naturally speaking. Urine is toxic stuff. The Koran places extreme importance on cleanliness and clean eating (tayyab). The Hadith mentions that “fever” is from the “heat of hell” [Hadith 621,622, page 417, vol 7]. Atrocious!

        4.The Hadith books insult the prophet by giving him a contradictory personality. In one instance it mentions that the prophet ate with a leper and in another it mentions that he refused to meet with a leper who had come to take allegiance at his hand and accept Islam. He told the man to leave and accepted his allegiance in absentia.

        5.The famous Hadith about the fly: “If a fly falls into the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (in the vessel) and then throw it away [and use the material in the vessel], for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is a healing [Bukhari, Hadith 673, pg. 452, vol 7]
        Beware world, there is going to be an outbreak of typhoid and cholera if people take the above as “Hadith-truth”, just like “gospel truth” made some people get castrated just because it reports Jesus saying, “….and there are some who make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.” Beware these myths can harm you!

        6.According to Hanbel 6/136, 192,213, the prophet “Never urinated in a standing position.” However Bukhari in his “authentic” book of Hadith says that the prophet indeed urinated in a standing position. (Bukhari 4/60-64)

        7.According to Bukhari 56/152 and Hanbel 3/107, 163; the prophet recommended that people drink camel urine to recuperate after an illness Later on when the same people killed the prophet’s shepherd, he commanded that they be seized, their eyes taken out and their hands and feet cut and left them thirsty in the desert. This does not fit in with the personality of the prophet presented in the Koran. The Koran says that the prophet was compassionate. How could the prophet recommend the drinking of camel’s urine, considering the importance that the Koran gives to hygiene?

        8.The Koran commands believers not to make any distinction between any of God’s messengers (Koran 2:285 and many other places), yet according to Bukhari’s books of Hadith (Bukhari 97/36), the prophet contradicted the Koran saying that he was the “most honorable” among all the messengers. Not only this, the books of Bukhari make the prophet even contradict himself by saying in a different Hadith (Bukhari 65/4,6 and Hanbel 1/205,242,440) that we should not make any distinction between the messengers and that he was not better than even Yunus. Could the prophet have contradicted the Koran? Could the prophet of Allah have contradicted himself? The books of Hadith in fact insult the prophet by attributing to him things he never said or did.

        9.According to the books of Hadith, a woman is compared to a black dog or a monkey (this Hadith pre-dates Darwin but it refers to women only) Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86. The Koran on the other hand honors women and lifts up their status contrary to what is contained in the Hadith. A woman is called bad luck in the haidth (Bukhari 76/53). Also, according to the collection of Muslim (Sahih Muslim), most of the people in hell were of the feminine gender! According to Bukhari, “Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective.” Therefore, according to the standard of the Koran, no Muslim should accept such prejudiced Hadith as issuing from the lips of the prophet of God.

        10.According to Bukhari (Book of Jihad, 146) and Abu Dawd 113, the prophet gave permission to warriors to kill women and children in war. Indeed these people are attributing tyranny to a prophet held in honor by Allah, and described as having mercy for the people. The Koran says, even about the people that attack us first, that we should quit fighting if they offer peace, leave alone killing women and children. According to the standard of the Koran, the prophet could NEVER have asked his warriors to kill women and children.

        11.The Koran describes accurately, the shape of the earth as being rounded (Koran 39:5), and the cause of night and day as being the rotation of the earth. The Hadith and similar writings however contain mythological concepts, which are then by hook or by crook attributed to the prophet. The most famous commentary of the Koran, that by Ibn Kathir (2/29 and 50/1) makes extensive use of the Hadith as explaining the Koran. In that spirit, Ibn Kathir suggests that the earth is “carried on a giant bull.” When the bull shakes its head, an earthquake results. As stated earlier, Bukhari’s book of Hadith states that the sun revolves around the earth.

        12.According to Hanbel 4/85, 5/54, the prophet ordered that all black dogs be killed because they were devils. Inspired by that Hadith so called “Muslims” kill hundreds of dogs all over the world and consider them unclean.

        The Koran, on the other hand talks about the sleepers in the cave (sura 18) as having a dog, inside their dwelling place and allows meat killed by hunting dogs. There is nothing in the Koran, which even remotely suggests that dogs are unclean as pets. Indeed the Koran states that God has subjected animals to be of use to humankind.

        13.The Koran states that,” Vision cannot comprehend God, who comprehends all vision,” yet the Hadith of Bukhari 97/24 and 10/129 says that to prove his identity to Muhammed, God showed the prophet his thigh.

        14.The Koran mentions with absolutely no ambiguity that the punishment of adultery or fornication is 100 lashes (Koran 24:1-3); which is half in the case of slave girls (50 lashes) and double in the case of the wives of the prophet (200 lashes) if they were to become guilty. The Hadith, contrary to this mention “stoning to death,” as being the punishment of adultery in the case of married couples. This is completely against the commandment of Allah in the Koran, which makes no distinction between married or unmarried in the case of adultery.

        The Hadith is definitely borrowed from a similar ruling in the Old Testament. It contradicts the Koran. Could the prophet have issued a ruling contrary to the ruling of Allah in the Koran?
        There is no verse on stoning adulterers in the Koran. Hadith forgers knew about this so they inserted another Hadith which claims that a verse on stoning existed in the Koran but it was eaten by a goat and so vanished from the earth (Ibn Maja 36/144; Ibn Hanbal 3/61;5/131, 132, 183;6/269). The Hadith also tells of a “planet of the apes” type story in which the prophet helped stone a monkey guilty of adultery whom the other monkeys had caught in order to bring it to justice. Why do they attribute such fairy tales to the prophet? Could not God protect his book from the goat? The Koran suggests halving or doubling the punishment for adultery, how can you kill someone (stone to death) half or double?

        15.The Koran states that God is the protector of true believers, yet the Hadith states that the prophet was bewitched by a Jew and for many days, he didn’t know what he was doing (Bukhari 59/11, 76/47; Hanbel 6/57 and 4/367). This Hadith goes completely against the Koran, which counters in many places the claim of the unbelievers that the prophet was bewitched.

        16.The Koran talks of itself as being the only message that God intended the prophet to convey (Koran 42:52, 14:52;69:44;6:19 etc.). The Hadith of Muslim quotes the prophet as saying (Muslim, Zuhd 72, Hanbel 3/12,21,39) that no one should write anything from him other than the Koran. This particular Hadith is in harmony with the Koran, but then another Hadith contradicts not only the Koran but this Hadith. The prophet is quoted as asking, in Hanbel 2/162, Amr bin As, his companion to write everything he spoke.

        17.The Koran states that those who forbid things even though God has allowed them, are committing a great sin. Yet the followers of Hadith have forbidden (haraam) the use of silk and gold by men, even though Allah never forbade these in the Koran. Contrary to that Allah specifically allows them (Koran 7:30-32, 42:21;22:23; 35:33). The Hadith in keeping with its reputation of contradictions, even contradicts this forbidding law by stating that the prophet allowed a “gold ring” to be worn by one of his companions and forbade the others! Could the prophet have invented laws not in the Koran? Could he then have been partial in implementing those laws?

        18.The Koran only prohibits the meat of one animal, the pig. Certain sects in Islam however, based on the authority of the Hadith forbid clams, shrimp, crab etc. Why are they attributing against God a lie if they are submitters?

        19.According to the Koran, division into sects is the work of evil, and is the result of following man made ideas like the Hadith (Koran 23:52-56 and 6:159) Division into sects can never be a mercy as claimed by some schools of thought.

        The Koran claims to be the best Hadith (Ahsan ul hadeeth 39:23), and states that after Allah and his ayat (verses) no other Hadith is to be followed (Koran 45:6). The Koran also states that people have fabricated Hadith to mislead from the way of Allah (Koran 31:6 Lahwal Hadith). The Koran challenges people to produce a “Hadith” like the Koran (Koran 52:34) if they are truthful. The difference in language, style and content between the Koran and the other “Hadith” has been evident and is not denied even by those who believe in the Hadith as being genuine.

        “These are the verses of Allah (God) which we rehearse to you with truth. Then in what Hadith will they believe after Allah and His verses? (Koran 45:6).”

        The Koran’s Verdict:

        ” And the messenger says of Judgment Day, “O my Lord! My own people took this Koran as a thing to be shunned (KORAN 25:30).”

        The Koran says in well over 15 places that it is “explained in detail (6:114 etc).” One word used is Tafseel which means a detailed explanation. It further says that it contains a Biyan or clear exposition of everything (16:89). God says in the Koran that He neglected nothing in the Book (6:38). The Koran talks about Moses’ Book being Tamam (which means complete), and that the Koran is in no way less than that. The Koran also suggests that it should be Kaafi meaning “enough” for guidance by itself (29:51).

        The Koran states explicitly that the messenger’s duty was only “to convey the message (29:18),” and he said nothing on his own as his own sayings (69:44). It states that the message that the messenger conveyed was the Koran only (42:52 & 14:52 & 69:44). Therefore, to follow God’s words in the Koran would be to follow the messenger , (4:80), as the words of the Koran is the messenger’s speech (69:40). It also claims to be the Qawl or the speech of the messenger (69:40). The Koran claims that it contains answers to ALL relevant questions (25:33) and contains the best explanation (Tafseer) of itself (25:33 & 2:159). The Koran claims to be the Hukm or commandments of God, according to which humankind is to be judged (5:48). It also states that it is the Shariah or law/way with which God sent the messenger (45:18 & 42:13).
        Who would know best on how to talk to humankind but their creator? Therefore, it makes no sense to say that outside sources better explain God’s word.

        The Koran claims that it is explained fully in detail and lacks nothing. Therefore it must, according to its claim, contain a full explanation of everything in Islam, including Salaah (prayer). It surely does, we just need to study it. A careful reading of the Koran reveals that we are to get our Salaah from the Masjid-el Haraam [the continuous practice at Mecca since the time of Abraham], specifically the “place of Abraham (moqaam e Ibraheem).” The Koran tells us that the purpose of Hajj is to educate Muslims in Islam (Koran 22:27-28) and that the Masjid-el-Haraam is “guidance for all the worlds (3:96).”

        By indexing the verses of the Koran, we can check all relevant details on the Salaah [the daily prayer]. The Koran confirms and covers every aspect of Islam, more comprehensively and with no discrepancy compared to the books of Hadith. The Koran states explicitly that it guides to that “which is the MOST STRAIGHT PATH (17:9).”

        In Koran 2:185 it is stated explicitly that the Koran is the Criterion (Furqaan). It is the distinguisher between what is correct and what is wrong. If the Koran is missing details, as Muslim sects purport, how can it be a criterion or a distinguisher over those details?

        Notes:

        The Koran is in detail [6:114; 2:159-160; 10:37; 11:11; 41:1-3; 22:16; 6:38; 12:111; 14:52; 17:89; 75:16-19; 18:54; 20:113; 39:27-28; 54:17; 25:33; 16:89 etc.]

        The messenger’s duty is only to convey the Book [5:102; 16:35; 16:82; 24:54; 36:16-17; 14:52 etc.]

        The way sent down by God has been uniform in history in every way [41:43; 42:13; 46:9; 30:30; 6:20; 23:68; 21:24; 4:26; 1:7 read together with 19:58; 6:83-88]

        Extra-Koranic Hadith an innovation [6:112; 22:52; 17:73-77; 10:15; 16:116; 42:21; 10:69-70; 5:47-49; 7:28; 33:64-68; 6:123; 6:144; 49:16; 39:23; 45:6; 31:6; 52:33-34; 31:20; 6:116; 2:170; 69:38-49;81:15-19; 51:7-11]

        Like

      2. sidnessness2015 Avatar
        sidnessness2015

        Your question:

        AT LAST:
        Please put to me all other “horrible things” that makes such “false” barrier between you and the Sunnah. Let’s untie the knots one after the other.

        Answer: http://www.free-minds.org/hadith-conspiracy-distortion-islam

        Out of the books that the majority of Muslims believe in as being authentic, Sahih Bukhari is presented as being the MOST authentic. However a analysis of the history of the books shows that it is anything but authentic. Imam Bokhari the collector of the narration lived in a period over 230 years after the death of the prophet. Out of the 600,000 Hadith (narrations) that he collected, which were initially attributed to the prophet, he threw out as fabrication 592,700 of them and kept only 7300 as being genuine. They further reduce to 2762 Hadith after repetition.
        The margin of error in these numbers is so great, that any rational inquirer can see that accepting the book of Bukhari as containing all authentic Hadith or even a majority of authentic Hadith is stupidity. Yet the majority of Muslims unquestionable accept it as “gospel” truth!

        There are many scientific and logical errors and contradictions in the Book of Bukhari, as well as the other books. Some examples:

        1.The prophet according to Bukhari in one of the narration tells his companion Abu- Dharr Ghafari that the sun goes around the earth, in the apparent description that he gives (Hadith 421, pg. 283, vol. 4 of M.Muhsin Khan’s translation of Sahih Bukhari).

        This erroneous view was very popular at the time Bukhari compiled his collection. However this is absurd, we know today that the earth rotates around the sun, proven by scientific evidence. The Koran not only corrected this erroneous notion but also gave an accurate description of a round earth centuries before scientists discovered it.

        2.According to Hadith no disease is contagious [Adwa]. This as we all know is inaccurate. What about the common cold and viruses like Ebola etc. [Hadith 649, page 435, volume7]

        3.Books of Hadith contain many home-remedies, according to ideas prevalent at that time, which are scientifically absurd. The Hadith mentions there being a cure for every ailment in black cumin seed [Hadith 591, pg.400, vol 7]. This is evidently not true. Can it cure cancer or AIDS, not to mention even the common cold? Hadith suggests that we drink “camel-urine” to recuperate after an illness [Hadith 590, pg.399, vol.7]. This is disgusting, naturally speaking. Urine is toxic stuff. The Koran places extreme importance on cleanliness and clean eating (tayyab). The Hadith mentions that “fever” is from the “heat of hell” [Hadith 621,622, page 417, vol 7]. Atrocious!

        4.The Hadith books insult the prophet by giving him a contradictory personality. In one instance it mentions that the prophet ate with a leper and in another it mentions that he refused to meet with a leper who had come to take allegiance at his hand and accept Islam. He told the man to leave and accepted his allegiance in absentia.

        5.The famous Hadith about the fly: “If a fly falls into the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (in the vessel) and then throw it away [and use the material in the vessel], for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is a healing [Bukhari, Hadith 673, pg. 452, vol 7]
        Beware world, there is going to be an outbreak of typhoid and cholera if people take the above as “Hadith-truth”, just like “gospel truth” made some people get castrated just because it reports Jesus saying, “….and there are some who make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.” Beware these myths can harm you!

        6.According to Hanbel 6/136, 192,213, the prophet “Never urinated in a standing position.” However Bukhari in his “authentic” book of Hadith says that the prophet indeed urinated in a standing position. (Bukhari 4/60-64)

        7.According to Bukhari 56/152 and Hanbel 3/107, 163; the prophet recommended that people drink camel urine to recuperate after an illness Later on when the same people killed the prophet’s shepherd, he commanded that they be seized, their eyes taken out and their hands and feet cut and left them thirsty in the desert. This does not fit in with the personality of the prophet presented in the Koran. The Koran says that the prophet was compassionate. How could the prophet recommend the drinking of camel’s urine, considering the importance that the Koran gives to hygiene?

        8.The Koran commands believers not to make any distinction between any of God’s messengers (Koran 2:285 and many other places), yet according to Bukhari’s books of Hadith (Bukhari 97/36), the prophet contradicted the Koran saying that he was the “most honorable” among all the messengers. Not only this, the books of Bukhari make the prophet even contradict himself by saying in a different Hadith (Bukhari 65/4,6 and Hanbel 1/205,242,440) that we should not make any distinction between the messengers and that he was not better than even Yunus. Could the prophet have contradicted the Koran? Could the prophet of Allah have contradicted himself? The books of Hadith in fact insult the prophet by attributing to him things he never said or did.

        9.According to the books of Hadith, a woman is compared to a black dog or a monkey (this Hadith pre-dates Darwin but it refers to women only) Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86. The Koran on the other hand honors women and lifts up their status contrary to what is contained in the Hadith. A woman is called bad luck in the haidth (Bukhari 76/53). Also, according to the collection of Muslim (Sahih Muslim), most of the people in hell were of the feminine gender! According to Bukhari, “Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective.” Therefore, according to the standard of the Koran, no Muslim should accept such prejudiced Hadith as issuing from the lips of the prophet of God.

        10.According to Bukhari (Book of Jihad, 146) and Abu Dawd 113, the prophet gave permission to warriors to kill women and children in war. Indeed these people are attributing tyranny to a prophet held in honor by Allah, and described as having mercy for the people. The Koran says, even about the people that attack us first, that we should quit fighting if they offer peace, leave alone killing women and children. According to the standard of the Koran, the prophet could NEVER have asked his warriors to kill women and children.

        11.The Koran describes accurately, the shape of the earth as being rounded (Koran 39:5), and the cause of night and day as being the rotation of the earth. The Hadith and similar writings however contain mythological concepts, which are then by hook or by crook attributed to the prophet. The most famous commentary of the Koran, that by Ibn Kathir (2/29 and 50/1) makes extensive use of the Hadith as explaining the Koran. In that spirit, Ibn Kathir suggests that the earth is “carried on a giant bull.” When the bull shakes its head, an earthquake results. As stated earlier, Bukhari’s book of Hadith states that the sun revolves around the earth.

        12.According to Hanbel 4/85, 5/54, the prophet ordered that all black dogs be killed because they were devils. Inspired by that Hadith so called “Muslims” kill hundreds of dogs all over the world and consider them unclean.

        The Koran, on the other hand talks about the sleepers in the cave (sura 18) as having a dog, inside their dwelling place and allows meat killed by hunting dogs. There is nothing in the Koran, which even remotely suggests that dogs are unclean as pets. Indeed the Koran states that God has subjected animals to be of use to humankind.

        13.The Koran states that,” Vision cannot comprehend God, who comprehends all vision,” yet the Hadith of Bukhari 97/24 and 10/129 says that to prove his identity to Muhammed, God showed the prophet his thigh.

        14.The Koran mentions with absolutely no ambiguity that the punishment of adultery or fornication is 100 lashes (Koran 24:1-3); which is half in the case of slave girls (50 lashes) and double in the case of the wives of the prophet (200 lashes) if they were to become guilty. The Hadith, contrary to this mention “stoning to death,” as being the punishment of adultery in the case of married couples. This is completely against the commandment of Allah in the Koran, which makes no distinction between married or unmarried in the case of adultery.

        The Hadith is definitely borrowed from a similar ruling in the Old Testament. It contradicts the Koran. Could the prophet have issued a ruling contrary to the ruling of Allah in the Koran?
        There is no verse on stoning adulterers in the Koran. Hadith forgers knew about this so they inserted another Hadith which claims that a verse on stoning existed in the Koran but it was eaten by a goat and so vanished from the earth (Ibn Maja 36/144; Ibn Hanbal 3/61;5/131, 132, 183;6/269). The Hadith also tells of a “planet of the apes” type story in which the prophet helped stone a monkey guilty of adultery whom the other monkeys had caught in order to bring it to justice. Why do they attribute such fairy tales to the prophet? Could not God protect his book from the goat? The Koran suggests halving or doubling the punishment for adultery, how can you kill someone (stone to death) half or double?

        15.The Koran states that God is the protector of true believers, yet the Hadith states that the prophet was bewitched by a Jew and for many days, he didn’t know what he was doing (Bukhari 59/11, 76/47; Hanbel 6/57 and 4/367). This Hadith goes completely against the Koran, which counters in many places the claim of the unbelievers that the prophet was bewitched.

        16.The Koran talks of itself as being the only message that God intended the prophet to convey (Koran 42:52, 14:52;69:44;6:19 etc.). The Hadith of Muslim quotes the prophet as saying (Muslim, Zuhd 72, Hanbel 3/12,21,39) that no one should write anything from him other than the Koran. This particular Hadith is in harmony with the Koran, but then another Hadith contradicts not only the Koran but this Hadith. The prophet is quoted as asking, in Hanbel 2/162, Amr bin As, his companion to write everything he spoke.

        17.The Koran states that those who forbid things even though God has allowed them, are committing a great sin. Yet the followers of Hadith have forbidden (haraam) the use of silk and gold by men, even though Allah never forbade these in the Koran. Contrary to that Allah specifically allows them (Koran 7:30-32, 42:21;22:23; 35:33). The Hadith in keeping with its reputation of contradictions, even contradicts this forbidding law by stating that the prophet allowed a “gold ring” to be worn by one of his companions and forbade the others! Could the prophet have invented laws not in the Koran? Could he then have been partial in implementing those laws?

        18.The Koran only prohibits the meat of one animal, the pig. Certain sects in Islam however, based on the authority of the Hadith forbid clams, shrimp, crab etc. Why are they attributing against God a lie if they are submitters?

        19.According to the Koran, division into sects is the work of evil, and is the result of following man made ideas like the Hadith (Koran 23:52-56 and 6:159) Division into sects can never be a mercy as claimed by some schools of thought.

        The Koran claims to be the best Hadith (Ahsan ul hadeeth 39:23), and states that after Allah and his ayat (verses) no other Hadith is to be followed (Koran 45:6). The Koran also states that people have fabricated Hadith to mislead from the way of Allah (Koran 31:6 Lahwal Hadith). The Koran challenges people to produce a “Hadith” like the Koran (Koran 52:34) if they are truthful. The difference in language, style and content between the Koran and the other “Hadith” has been evident and is not denied even by those who believe in the Hadith as being genuine.

        “These are the verses of Allah (God) which we rehearse to you with truth. Then in what Hadith will they believe after Allah and His verses? (Koran 45:6).”

        The Koran’s Verdict:

        ” And the messenger says of Judgment Day, “O my Lord! My own people took this Koran as a thing to be shunned (KORAN 25:30).”

        The Koran says in well over 15 places that it is “explained in detail (6:114 etc).” One word used is Tafseel which means a detailed explanation. It further says that it contains a Biyan or clear exposition of everything (16:89). God says in the Koran that He neglected nothing in the Book (6:38). The Koran talks about Moses’ Book being Tamam (which means complete), and that the Koran is in no way less than that. The Koran also suggests that it should be Kaafi meaning “enough” for guidance by itself (29:51).

        The Koran states explicitly that the messenger’s duty was only “to convey the message (29:18),” and he said nothing on his own as his own sayings (69:44). It states that the message that the messenger conveyed was the Koran only (42:52 & 14:52 & 69:44). Therefore, to follow God’s words in the Koran would be to follow the messenger , (4:80), as the words of the Koran is the messenger’s speech (69:40). It also claims to be the Qawl or the speech of the messenger (69:40). The Koran claims that it contains answers to ALL relevant questions (25:33) and contains the best explanation (Tafseer) of itself (25:33 & 2:159). The Koran claims to be the Hukm or commandments of God, according to which humankind is to be judged (5:48). It also states that it is the Shariah or law/way with which God sent the messenger (45:18 & 42:13).
        Who would know best on how to talk to humankind but their creator? Therefore, it makes no sense to say that outside sources better explain God’s word.

        The Koran claims that it is explained fully in detail and lacks nothing. Therefore it must, according to its claim, contain a full explanation of everything in Islam, including Salaah (prayer). It surely does, we just need to study it. A careful reading of the Koran reveals that we are to get our Salaah from the Masjid-el Haraam [the continuous practice at Mecca since the time of Abraham], specifically the “place of Abraham (moqaam e Ibraheem).” The Koran tells us that the purpose of Hajj is to educate Muslims in Islam (Koran 22:27-28) and that the Masjid-el-Haraam is “guidance for all the worlds (3:96).”

        By indexing the verses of the Koran, we can check all relevant details on the Salaah [the daily prayer]. The Koran confirms and covers every aspect of Islam, more comprehensively and with no discrepancy compared to the books of Hadith. The Koran states explicitly that it guides to that “which is the MOST STRAIGHT PATH (17:9).”

        In Koran 2:185 it is stated explicitly that the Koran is the Criterion (Furqaan). It is the distinguisher between what is correct and what is wrong. If the Koran is missing details, as Muslim sects purport, how can it be a criterion or a distinguisher over those details?

        Notes:

        The Koran is in detail [6:114; 2:159-160; 10:37; 11:11; 41:1-3; 22:16; 6:38; 12:111; 14:52; 17:89; 75:16-19; 18:54; 20:113; 39:27-28; 54:17; 25:33; 16:89 etc.]

        The messenger’s duty is only to convey the Book [5:102; 16:35; 16:82; 24:54; 36:16-17; 14:52 etc.]

        The way sent down by God has been uniform in history in every way [41:43; 42:13; 46:9; 30:30; 6:20; 23:68; 21:24; 4:26; 1:7 read together with 19:58; 6:83-88]

        Extra-Koranic Hadith an innovation [6:112; 22:52; 17:73-77; 10:15; 16:116; 42:21; 10:69-70; 5:47-49; 7:28; 33:64-68; 6:123; 6:144; 49:16; 39:23; 45:6; 31:6; 52:33-34; 31:20; 6:116; 2:170; 69:38-49;81:15-19; 51:7-11]

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      3. sidnessness2015 Avatar
        sidnessness2015

        Your statement (quite incredulous to be honest):
        Don’t tell me that a sheep enters the Prophet’s house and heads straight to such document and eat it, was mare luck, my friend! … It’s obvious it was sent by Allah to accomplish the mission of removing a written form of abrogated verse(s). THAT’S NO LESS THAN A MIRACLE.

        Are you for real bro?????? You must have drank some camel pee!!! LOL. Do you guys use your brains or have the scholars put a spell on you? Or maybe Allah put covers over your eyes so you don’t see (it’s all in the Quran if you only you spend time reading it rather then listening to your scholars).

        Like

    2. sidnessness2015 Avatar
      sidnessness2015

      May Allah reward you for all your efforts brother ‘Muslim’ (I use these quotes to signify respect and gratitude for your fight back against the ‘Darwish’ and his type, and I use the quotes in his case to denote pure sarcasm if he understands the meaning of his username. I think he means we are not true muslims and worse still, like Ahmed clearly said above, we are Kafirs. Subhanna Allah!!!! I thought it is up to Allah to judge! But i guess you cannot argue with ignorance and like Allah said in his book, Man argues a lot.

      I have read the threads here and noticed that the arguments that the true muslims put forward, otherwise known by ‘darwish’ and his type as ‘quranists’, are based on the word of Allah and logic that he bestowed on us. After all, Allah demanded that the Angels bow to Adam for a reason. And the first verse of the Quran demands that WE, every single one of us, TO READ, otherwise he would have said ask those who read, but Allah guides whom he wills and misguides whom he wills. I never understood this verse until I became a true muslim, oh, sorry, a ‘quran only muslim’ as ‘darwish’ and his type prefer to label us as. I pray that god guides us all inchallah. Guidance depends on the purity of the heart and Allah’s will, whereas misguidance is strongly defended by ones’ pre-concepts and EGO, the indivicual and collective type!!!

      I believe that people are trapped in the belief systems they find themselves in, but Allah asks us to search for the truth and seek him. That is the only way. I am sure that if ‘darwish’ was born a shiate or Jew, he would still defend his belief system as his EGO demands. We ‘quranists’ put our faith in Allah alone and his words, as he demanded in his book, yet the rest rely on fallible people and hearsay to justify abhorrent tradition they claim to be religion. As Allah said in his book, they dress the truth with falsehood. In another verse, he said they try to extinguish the light of god but they shall never succeed.

      I feel so happy and encouraged that more and more people are waking up to the truth and that Shaitan’s spider’s web is crumbling slowly but surely. And thanks to brothers and sisters who seek the truth, the light will chase the darkness that had long engulfed us away for good. Ameen.

      Allah said it is up to him whether one understands the Quran or not…i agree that some degree of help is needed for its explanation, but associating partners with Allah in any shape or form is pure Shirk pure and simple. He said in his holy book that WE SHOULD FOLLOW WHAT HE DESCENDED ON US (QURAN) AND NOT TO FOLLOW IDOLS. These so called ”””’SCHOLARS””’ have cause great fitna and Allah promised them a shameful retribution. ‘Darwish’ and his type should seek them out on Judgement day for protection but Allah warned this would be futile.

      We have TOTAL faith in Allah’s word and read his book to the best of our abilities, just like he demanded in HIS BOOK. He only vouched for the Quran and NOTHIN ELSE!!!!! The ‘Sunnis’, ‘Shiates’ and ‘Suffis’ follow hearsay and trust fallible men and try to justify, in vain, their ridiculous theories with even more ridiculous excuses. If that is not shirk then do not know what is but Allah promised his WORD will prevail no matter how hard they try. They always quote verses out of context and try to use twisted logic, like what Bukhari said 200 years after the prophet PBUH departed this world equates to what the prophet PBUH himself said when he was alive. Dear oh dear, some people are truly misguided. The prophet PBUH only delivered the Quran and Allah only vouched for the Quran, so what other HADITH apart from the Quran do you believe in????????? Now i know what Allah means when he says he guides whom he wills and misguides whom he wills. The Hadith trick was first used in Judaism, where the so called ””””’scholars”””’ invented the talmud and the jews followed that instead the THEN word of god. How history repeats itself and Shaitan never tires of misguiding adam and Even’s children, but like Allah said in his his book (have u noticed ‘darwish’ that we always quote the Quran while you quote hearsay???): they conspire and Allah conspires, and God is greatest conspirator. This means that the darkness that we lived under since the Great Fitna of the hadith is beginning to fast disappear as more and more muslims and non muslims are turning to the true religion of Ibrahim and i doubht they used or even heard of Hadith then, but i doubt you will undertand unless Allah wills…you are trapped in the belief systems that your inherited and you will defend it by any means necessary instead of fighting so Allah’s word is the highest (It’s all in the Quran bro).

      My dear brother Muslim and all the ‘quranists’, or so we are called, keep up the fight and we will soon rid our great religion of all falsehood.

      To all mushrekeen…I say Allahs’ army are coming for you just like the Prophet Muhammad PBUH did the first time round. Allah has planned everything in advance…it’s all in the HOLY QURAN if only people take heed, but you won’t find many who will….again, it’s all in the Quran.

      Peace to all and may Allah rid us of all hatred and put us on the right path. Amen.

      Like

      Reply
      1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
        Mohammed Darwish

        Salam Alaykum,

        Why not Allah send’s a sheep to eat the document that contains Abrogated Ayats? … Are you saying Allah can’t? … Doesn’t want? … Or it’s hard for you to conceive the miracle? …

        I’m neither confirming this Hadith right nor wrong, bro. That’s not my job in this thread. However, when we are told by Allah in Quran 2:106 that there are verses that He will cause to be forgotten. Then the assumption that this sheep was guided by Allah to demolish this document is still there, right? You can’t falsify this argument? … and if you claim the ability to do, then go ahead.

        About Camel Pee Hadith:
        Every person attacks the Prophet’s Hadith that recommends drinking Camel Pee for cure, whether being a Muslim or Non, I immediately recognize his/her ignorance! … Don’t you know:

        > Millions of Chinese drink their urine every day, for cure purposes?
        > In Cameron, the government ordered the citizens to stop drinking their urine as it became an embarrassing phenomena due to shear number of citizens doing it?!
        > Yoga culture advises to drink cows urine every morning!
        > In the UK, actor Sara Myles drinks her morning pee every morning!
        > Singer Madonna cures her feet inflammation by dipping it into her pee!

        Google “Urine Therapy”, Mr. Ignorant Quranist before you start attacking your Prophet (PBUH) and his Hadith.

        Google “Premarin” … the medicine for human manufactured by the industry giant “pfiser” … extracted out of pregnant horse female urine!

        I’m sure you’re unaware of the fact that Urine is 100% bacteria free. ie. sterilized. Once you come over the smell and taste of Ammonia, then nothing wrong in drinking the “pee” fluid from a medical point of view.

        So, when medicine giants starts making medicines for human from “pee” … while your Prophet (PBUH) says in Hadith “Drink Camel Pee for cure”, said in 7th Cen. AD … you can do nothing but believe the authenticity of this Prophet being a Prophet … and the authenticity of the book that transferred such Hadith to us.

        ———————————————————

        PS.: I’m in a family vacation. I took this time to answer you and your fellow “Muslim” … I’ll be free after 10 days from now … I’ll come back to you about your looooong list of “horrible Hadith’s” … I didn’t forget or avoiding … I’m just not free. From now until then, take care and prepare yourself.

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      2. sidnessness2015 Avatar
        sidnessness2015

        Brother, Please refer to the verses below and explain them. We refer to the Quran, and you use conjuncture and hearsay. We have complete faith in Allah, his prophet PBUH (who only delivered the Quran and nothing else) and all those prophets SAAS who came before him, and the HOLY QURAN. You guys uphold hadith above the quran, trust humans (who are fallible by nature except the prophets SAAS.)

        One question for you: do you think the current Sharia is based on Quran or Hadith, and if both, what percentage of the Quran? If hadith contradicts the Quran, would you still uphold that Hadith above the Quran? If so, isn’t that Shirk?????

        Please read 5:3 when Allah clearly confirmed that the religion of islam was completed for us on THAT DAY (the day the prophet was departing this world)…and not some 200 years later. The Quran was completed in WRITTEN form during the life of our noble prophet PBUH, as Allah clearly refers the Quran as KITAB, which means book that is fully detailed, but those who seek fitna claimed it was written some 23 years after his death so they can justify HADITH. Some misguided Sunnis tell me that the Quran was compiled the say way the Hadith was, so i doubt the Hadith then i should doubt the Quran…what logic is this??? Allah provided a Quran and promised to guard it until the end of time…now that is a MIRACLE and not some goat eating verses….where in the Quran did Allah promise to guard hadith????

        Another question: what did the muslims before Bukhari was born follow???? Why does Allah keep saying THIS book (the quran) is fully detailed??? Why didn’t he demand we follow the HADITH in the Quran??? Too many questions that you guys will have to answer using the QURAN and not some silly stories about goats eating verses of the Quran (may Allah forgive us all). You are clearly saying the Quran is not enough, meaning, Allah is imperfect, but Bukhari is perfect as if he says this hadith is sahih, to you is the ultimate truth. Aren’t you saying Bukhari is more complete than Allah????? Subhanna Allah…your logic is truly baffling.

        from now on, please explain the verses that myself and other ‘true muslims’ are providing instead of quoting stories that neither YOU nor US can possibly verify. You say Hadith was passed on orally as people learnt them by heart…what, some 6,000+ hadith that NO ONE in this day and age can manage???? I know many people who memorised the Quran…but i know of non one who memorised the entire Hadith collection…can’t you see the trick and the lie here??? do you guys ever use logic that Allah gave us????

        Please evaluate the verses below and come back with solid answers, and don’t let your EGO turn this into a futile argument just to prove you are right. Only Allah is right all the time if you are a true believer.

        Let Allah be the judge between us on Judgement day. I am done arguing. Like i said, Allah guides whom he wills and misleads whom he wills, and Allah knows best (not Bukhari). Salam.

        PS: Some Imams are fighting back. Please watch this video.

        The Quran is enough for us, It is clear & fully detailed.
        Verses: 2:67-71 , 3:7 , 4:82 , 4:87 , 5:3 , 5:101 , 6:105 , 6:114 – 116 , 6:38 , 6:155 , 7:52 , 10:24 , 10:37 , 12:1 12:111 , 15:1 , 16:89 , 17:89 , 18:54-58 , 18:109 , 20:52 , 24:59 , 25:33 , 29:47 , 36:69-70 , 38:29 , 39:27 , 54:17 56:81 , 69:40 , 75:19

        http://quran.com/2/67 http://quranix.org/2#67
        please reflect on this story from the Qur’an 2:67 – 71 ; do not overcomplicate religion

        http://quran.com/3/7 http://quranix.org/3#7
        3:7 – He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are straightforward verses; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, “We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord.” None will remember except the people of intellect.

        http://quran.com/4/82 http://quranix.org/4#82
        4:82 – Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it were from any other than God they would have found many contradictions in it.

        http://quran.com/4/87 http://quranix.org/4#87
        [please note that the word hadeeth = sayings, news, or narration in english]

        4:87 – Allah, there is no diety except He. He will surely summon you on the Day of Resurrection – the inevitable day. Whose narration is more truthful than Allah’s?

        http://quran.com/5/3 http://quranix.org/5#3
        …This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion….

        http://quran.com/5/101 http://quranix.org/5#101
        5:101 – O you who believe, do not ask about things which, if clarified, would harm you – and if you ask about them while the is Qur’an being revealed, then they will become clear to you. God pardons for them, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

        http://quran.com/6/105 http://quranix.org/6#105
        6:105 – It is thus that We explain the signs that they may say, “You have studied,” and We will make it clear for a people who know.

        http://quran.com/6/114 http://quranix.org/6#114
        6:114 – “Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?” Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

        6:115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
        6:116 If you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you away from God’s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.*

        http://quran.com/6/38 http://quranix.org/6#38
        6:38 – All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book, then to their Lord they will be summoned.

        http://quran.com/6/155 http://quranix.org/6#155
        6:155 – This too is a blessed book that We have sent down. So follow it and be aware, that you may receive mercy.

        http://quran.com/7/52 http://quranix.org/7#52
        7:52 – We have brought them a book which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe.

        http://quran.com/10/24 http://quranix.org/10#24
        10:24 – ….[continued from previous lines]….We clarify the signs to people who think.

        http://quran.com/10/37 http://quranix.org/10#37
        10:37 – This Quran could not have been produced without Allah, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to provide detail to the book in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.

        http://quran.com/12/1 http://quranix.org/12#1
        12:1 – ALR, these are the signs of the clarifying Book.

        http://quran.com/12/111 http://quranix.org/12#111
        12:111 – In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. It is not a narration that has been invented, but an authentication of what is between his hands and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

        http://quran.com/15/1 http://quranix.org/15#1
        15:1 – ALR, these are the signs of the Book, and a clear Qur’an.

        http://quran.com/16/89 http://quranix.org/16#89
        16:89 – The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.

        http://quran.com/17/89 http://quranix.org/17#89
        17:89 – In this Quran We have cited every example for the people; but most of the people refuse to be anything but ingrates!

        http://quran.com/18/54 http://quranix.org/18#54
        18:54 – We have cited in this Qur’an every example for the people. But the human being is always most argumentative.
        18:55 – And what prevented the people from believing when the guidance came to them, and to seek forgiveness from their Lord? Are they waiting for what happened to the people of old to come to them, or that the retribution be brought to them face to face?

        18:56 And We do not send the messengers except as bearers of good news and warners. But those who reject will argue using falsehood to overshadow the truth with it. And they took My revelations and what they have been warned by for mockery!

        18:57 And who is more wicked than he who was reminded of the revelations of his Lord but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided.

        18:58 Your Lord is forgiving, with mercy. If He were to judge the people for what they had already earned, He would hasten for them the retribution. No, they have an appointment, beyond which they will find no escape.

        http://quran.com/18/109 http://quranix.org/18#109
        18:109 Say, “If the sea were an inkwell for the words of my Lord, then the sea would run out before the words of my Lord run out;” even if We were to bring another like it for its aid.

        http://quran.com/20/52 http://quranix.org/20#52
        20:52 He said, “Its knowledge is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.”

        http://quran.com/24/59 http://quranix.org/24#59
        24:59 – ….[continued]….God thus clarifies His revelations for you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

        http://quran.com/25/33 http://quranix.org/25#33
        25:33 – And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.

        http://quran.com/29/47 http://quranix.org/29#47
        29:47 Similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the book will acknowledge it. Also, some of your people will acknowledge it. The only ones who mock Our signs are the rejecters.

        http://quran.com/36/69 http://quranix.org/36#69
        36:69 – We did not teach him poetry, nor does he need it. This is a reminder and a clear Qur’an.

        36:70 – To warn those who are alive, and so that the retribution will be deserved by the ingrates.

        http://quran.com/38/29 http://quranix.org/38#29
        38:29 A book that We have sent down to you, that is blessed, so that they may reflect upon its signs, and so that those with intelligence will take heed.

        http://quran.com/39/27 http://quranix.org/39#27
        39:27 – We have cited for the people in this Quran from every example, that they may take heed.

        http://quran.com/54/17 http://quranix.org/54#17
        54:17 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?

        http://quran.com/56/81 http://quranix.org/56#81
        56:81 – Are you disregarding this hadith?

        http://quran.com/69/40 http://quranix.org/69#40
        69:40 – This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.

        http://quran.com/75/19 http://quranix.org/75#19
        75:19 – Then it is for Us to clarify it.

        Like

  20. yaks4uMuslim Avatar
    yaks4uMuslim

    Thank You DARWISH. I shall also QUOTE quote you and respond appropriately ;

    “”It’s trivial to seek the advice and interpretation of religion scholars when we need to understand our religion. Or else, we shouldn’t seek a Physics Professor when we need to understand Physics, and (according to your logic) we shall say, “This would be considered idolatry reverence for Physicists”!”””

    I have IN NO WHERE mentioned that scholars should NOT BE consulted, As a matter of fact, They Cannot be ignored, it was due to consultations of their works that ensures that their mistakes are corrected! I WAS WARNED NEVER TO FOLLOW BLINDLY.

    You also fail miserably in Your comparing the BOOK of Allah to SECULAR books. You fail to see that THE BOOK OF ALLAH has a DIVINE Guidance! This can be demonstrated with a simple analogy ;

    If i have a PhD in string theory of PHYSICS, IT MEANS I am an AUTHORITY on the matter, I HAVE A FULL understanding of the issue, I can propose theories on the matter? It is NEVER thesame for the Quran. People Might have Islamic Phds from Quranic Studies, IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY fully understand the Quran. People who have Phd. In islamic studies and after memorizing the Full Quran YET STILL REJECT its message. I hope you get my point NOW!. Stop stop embarrassing yourself by comparing the book of ALLAH that HE HIMSELF has taken responsibility of EXPLAINING and comparing it to worldly books.
    ———————————————————————————————–

    “”This is a direct refutation to your assertion from the Quran itself as it highlights that scholars (who have knowledge) are the most people fearing God! ………Quran also highlights the importance of referring to Scholars for seeking the knowledge if we don’t know”

    My statement was never that SCHOLARS should not be referred to, RATHER WE DO NOT FOLLOW THEM without questioning.

    LET Me tell you the condition of being GUIDED as Allah spelt it out in the Quran if you care to learn.

    39;18 ;
    The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
    —————————————————————————————————

    “BTW, why do you ignore the verses mentioning the good and faithful Jewish and Christian Scholars?!”

    Yet again Brother, you are still HOPELESSLY missing the point. No one said DO NOT REFERENCE scholars, I shall post a response from a scholar here very soon, one of your VERY revered SCHOLARS, who DEBUNKED the concept of abrogation, A LIE AGAINST THE QURAN>

    ——————————————————————————————————–

    “:”In Shia books of “Hadith” you’ll find many of what so called Broken Narration Chain. It says B heard from A … WHILE:
    a- Either B or A is known to be a liar.””

    Well here is WHAT YOUR fellow SUNNI SHEIKS the ONES YOU REVERE SOOOOOO MUCH ARE SAYING ABOUT YOUR revered hadith books :

    Dr. Muhammad Mustafa Azami, A.A, Ph.D and professor of science of Hadith, University of Riyadh, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia Writes ; MANY SCHOLARS CRITICIZED BUKHARI’S WORK. THE CRITICISM CONCERNS ABOUT 80 NARRATORS.

    Jamal Al-Banna, A Younger brother of Hassa Al-Banna(Founder of Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt) Has published a boook in which he argues that 653 of the hadiths as written in Al-Bukhari and Muslim are INCORRECT and should not be ACCEPTED. The Arabic book is titled “” THE CLEANSING OF BUKHARI and MUSLIM from USELESS Hadiths” (2008)

    ———————————————————————————————————-

    Yes, The Qur’an is easy TO understand, You wish to twist the meaning of the Quran to justify that it is DIFFICULT to Understand so you can monopolize its understanding to your scholars only. Well, read the post bellow from Joseph Islam ;

    “One needs to exercise extreme caution not to impose meanings from other languages onto classical Arabic expecting identical nuances. This even surpasses the realms of etymological fallacies well known to any seasoned enquirer as a false argument.

    To suggest that the Quranic ‘yassarnaa’ can easily mean ‘we have made available’ in the context cited is incorrect, especially by positing support from the usage of a similar verb in another language.

    The form I (stem) verb of the root YSR is ‘Yasura’ which as a verbal noun means with easiness or ease. The Quran also uses the verbal noun ‘yusr’ in 2:185 where the word’s inherent meaning can clearly be derived.

    “…God desires ease (yusra) for you, and desires not hardship (usra)…”(2:185)

    In the above, the verbal noun ‘yusr’ is clearly contrasted with ‘usra’ which means hardship or difficulty. So it is clear what ‘yusr means’ i.e. ease.

    The form of the verb which has been cited in the post you have shared (54:40) is ‘yassara’. The same form of the verb is used in 80:20 where the Quran says ‘thumma’sabbila yassara’ (Then He made the way easy or smooth). So it is clear what the verb ‘yassara’ means in this context as used by the Quran (easy). If the Quran was not easy for remembrance then the statement “fahal min muddkarin’ (so is there any who will receive admonition) would also be meaningless in this context. The Quran is clearly inciting people to take admonition from a Quran that is easy to ponder upon.

    As with part quotations bereft of context is an approach unworthy of sincere academic assessment. For example, where does the Quran say that the Quran is ‘only for those who are Jurists’? Furthermore, there is a sharp contrast in suggesting that a people do not take heed or use their intellect as in verse 8:22 as opposed to saying that ‘the majority people do not have the capability to understand it’.

    008:022
    “Indeed, the vilest of living animals, in God’s sight, are the deaf, the dumb and those that do not use their intellect (Aql – Arabic: yAQLun)”

    At no point to my humble knowledge does the Quran clearly assert that the majority have no ‘capability’ to understand the Quran. This is naught but an unwarranted interpolation.

    On the other hand, the Quran questions why people don’t use their intellect clearly underscoring the capacity of the masses to grasp the message.

    007:169 (Part)
    “… Will you not use your intellect?” (Arabic: afala tAQLun?)

    The Quran even clearly asks the disbelievers to reflect (4:82), to ponder and to deliberate and uses the Arabic ‘taddabur’ throughout the Quran to entice people to think research / ponder intently till the matter is clear (4:82, 23:68, 38:29, 47:24).

    This confirms capacity and not negate it.

    Why would the Quran repeatedly ask a community to ponder on the Quran if it was beyond the realms of their faculties to comprehend or grasp?

    With respect, candidness and in my humble view, the post’s central argument has no basis from a Quran’s perspective and has long been used by many of various theological ilks to rest control over the Quran’s interpretation.”

    I now see why you don’t get the understanding of the Qur’an, Because you DON’T believe it is easy to understand.
    ————————————————————————————–

    “Not at all. I still can differentiate between a good and a bad “Mechanic”, provided that I’m not one of them. You can too. But again, this doesn’t mean we don’t need them.”

    You still fail in YOUR analogy, Your fail to acknowledge a divine system at work. As you keep comparing Gods system to secular system. THE SHIA also Has similar believes about his scholars you know. Until we learn to SCRUTINIZE EVERY SCHOLAR, Listen to ALL of them and follow the best words, WE WILL STILL BE in the DARK.

    I am surprised you believe the Quran has a refreshing interpretation, YET YOU HOLD UNTO, Ancient scholarly interpretations and analysis of the Quran. What a contradictory thought.
    ————————————————————————————

    Your wrote ~~~~~ “YES DUDE, THEY ARE PERFECTLY AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS, TRUE AND QURAN COMPLIANT!”

    They are all CORRECT, YET There are Quranic verses that Made it CLEAR That NOTHING changes in the Book of Allah, Because of trying to force the correctness of these lies on the Quran, YOUR SCHOLARS invented the DOCTRINE of Abrogation ~ The greatest lie AGAINST the Quran!

    Let me ask the following Question :

    How many verses of the Quran in total has been abrogated. “note that there is no agreed list amongst your revered scholars” I want to know which of the CONTRADICTORY branch you belong to.

    How many Hadith have been abrogated in your scholarly invented Abrogation theory.

    Read this WONDERFUL refutation on the theory of abrogation : http://www.free-minds.org/abrogation

    Additionally too, here is the VIEW on a prominent sunni scholar of the LIE attributed to the Quran

    Muhammed Asad writes ::

    Muhammad Asad’s above mentioned footnote 87 on Sura 2:106 is quite interesting:

    “… The principle laid down in this passage – relating to the supersession of the Biblical dispensation by that of the Qur’an – has given rise to an erroneous interpretation by many Muslim theologians. The word ayah (‘message’) occurring in this context is also used to denote a ‘verse’ of the Qur’an (because every one of these verses contains a message). Taking this restricted meaning of the term ayah, some scholars conclude from the above passage that certain verses of the Qur’an have been ‘abrogated’ by God’s command before the revelation of the Qur’an was completed. Apart from the fancifulness of this assertion – WHICH CALLS TO MIND THE IMAGE OF A HUMAN AUTHOR CORRECTING, ON SECOND THOUGHT, THE PROOFS OF HIS MANUSCRIPT, deleting one passage and replacing it with another – there does not exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever declared a verse of the Qur’an to have been ‘abrogated’. At the root of the so-called ‘doctrine of abrogation’ MAY LIE THE INABILITY OF SOME EARLY COMMENTATORS TO RECONCILE ONE QUR’ANIC PASSAGE WITH ANOTHER; a difficulty which was overcome by declaring that one of the verses in question had been ‘abrogated’. This arbitrary procedure explains also why there is no unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of the ‘doctrine of abrogation’ as to which, and how many, Qur’an-verses have been affected by it; and furthermore, as to whether this alleged abrogation implies a total elimination of the verse from the context of the Qur’an, or only a cancellation of the specific ordinance or statement contained in it. In short, the ‘doctrine of abrogation’ has no basis in historical fact, and must be rejected …” (Asad, Message of the Qur’an [Dar Al-Andalus Limited 3 Library Ramp, Gibraltar rpt. 1993], pp. 22-23, n. 87

    The hadith contains evidence for shias, sunnis and every sect one belongs to, THE QURAN HAS A BEAUTIFUL prophecy for such kind of book.

    “Shall we treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is wrong with your judgment? DO YOU HAVE A BOOK WHERE YOU CAN FIND ANYTHING YOU WISH?”

    Like

    Reply
    1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Thanks yaks4uMuslim for your reply; However…

      ——————————————————————————-

      Quote:
      “People Might have Islamic Phds from Quranic Studies, IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY fully understand the Quran.”

      Reply:
      Your own words refute your argument that Quran is easy to understand … Full Stop!

      ——————————————————————————-

      Quote:
      “The Quran is clearly inciting people to take admonition from a Quran that is easy to ponder upon”

      Reply:
      This doesn’t mean it’s easy to be understood! Since how long Muslims are pondering upon the Space?! Did they fully understand it?! … Or even today’s western scientists?! …

      You know what? … Pls. interpret this verse to me Mr. Quran-is-easy-to-understand … Verse 19:01 “Kaf, Ha, Ya, ‘Ayn, Sad.” …

      BTW, don’t put words into my mouth … There are still parts of the Quran easy to interpret and understand indeed … what I’m not in-line with you is the GENERALIZATION of the statement (easy to understand) on all Quran.

      ———————————————————————————-

      Quote:
      “Muhammad Asad’s above mentioned footnote 87 on Sura 2:106 is quite interesting:
      there does not exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever declared a verse of the Qur’an to have been ‘abrogated”

      Reply:
      False! … There are many Hadiths that the Prophet declared that Allah made him forget some Ayah’s … Now if you’re a Quranist … such Hadiths won’t ring a bill in your brain … But for me, Dr. Muhammad Asad is wrong indeed.

      I wonder if Dr. Muhammad Asad falls under the category of “scholars who still get it wrong” … you declared earlier in your post!

      My friend … Abrogation took place in the verses of Ibadat (worshipping) … not verses of Aqeedah … Pls. keep in mind that Islam descended among people who were Kafir (Mushrik) … and in some aspects of life laws had to be gradual … such as prohibiting Alcohol. If Prophet (PBUH) ordered them from the first day “Stop Alcohol” it would be very hard for a community – addicted to Alcohol – to comply. So, Allah decided to prohibit Alcohol in a gradual process … and once community became ready for the final “QUIT ORDER” then the final Ayah that prohibits Alcohol (and gambling) was revealed to the Prophet.

      Abrogation doesn’t mean that Allah had contradicted himself, rather, it reveals Allah’s knowledge that such Law “Hokm” was intended to be temporar and will be superseded once community is ready, because Allah is dealing with a human nature not robots. If you become the president of the US today, you can’t just order the citizens to stop consuming alcohol, can you? Even if people love you, your request will impact hard on them resulting of majority disobeying you. It happened in the state of Chicago and people painfully failed to comply during 1930’s.

      So, Allah the only omniscient, knows the human nature He created and thus descended laws in gradual fashion in some aspects of life. Each step abrogates the previous.

      So, please get it right.

      ——————————————————————————–

      Look my friend, let’s put some common ground here,
      I myself believe that no book is immune but the Quran. This makes Sunnah Books (for being made by human) are subject to errors. But a book being subject to errors doesn’t mean it contains errors.

      If we humans are subject to disease infections, does it mean we are infected?! … We’re talking about different terms here, bro. Yes we are subject to infection but to prove that we are infected it needs tests and symptoms! …

      Same token, Hadith books are subject to errors (ie. Infections) because they are man-made … but to prove a book DOES HAVE an error is another task. This is what differentiates between Sunni Books and other sects books.

      ——————————————————————————–

      Last … you failed to address many other points in my post.
      You never addressed the verses that order you to follow the Prophet, to obey the Prophet, to take whatever the Prophet had given you. And I really don’t think that you believe the Prophet didn’t say a word other than Quran from his mouth!

      May Allah show all of us the right path …

      Thanks,,,

      PS. You calling Hadith books as “secular books” made me laugh, indeed.

      Like

      Reply
      1. yaks4u Avatar
        yaks4u

        Thanks for response.ONE OF THE MOST WITNESSED HADITH REFLECTS FABRICATION OF HADITH TO SUPPORT THE SUNNI SHIA SPLIT.

        It is the alleged final sermon (Khutba) of the Prophet (Khutbat Al-Wadaa’). This great and historic event is reported in many important books of hadith, including Muslim, Muwatta, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, Ahmed Ibn Hanbal. The big problem is: these books report three vastly different doctrines from this historic sermon
        which was witnessed by 100,000 witnesses (most hadiths were supposedly witnessed by 1 or 2 people). Infact, the main topic in that all-important sermon gives three contradicting commandments.

        Here is what the prophet allegedly said:

        1) “I am leaving for you two things that you must uphold, the Quran and my Sunnah” (According to
        Muwatta 46/3).

        2) “I am leaving for you the Quran and my relatives (Ahl Al- Bayt)” (According to Muslim 44/4, Nu 2408;
        Ibn Hanbal 4/366; Darimi 23/1, Nu 3319).

        3) “I am leaving for you the Quran; you shall uphold it” (According to Muslim 15/19, Nu 1218; Ibn Majah
        25/84, Nu 3074; Abu Dawud 11/56, Nu 1905).

        As you see, the LAST words of the LAST sermon of the LAST prophet which had been witnessed by the greatest number of his friends, have been reported in three different versions.

        IN RELATION TO UNDERSTANDING THE QUR’AN ~~ Do you believe it or Not.

        You still MISSING THE IMPORTANT DIVINE HAND IN THE ISSUE OF UNDERSTANDING THE QURAN.

        Do you believe it is DETAILED, EXPLAINED BY GOD, and EASY TO UNDERSTAND???

        My mentioning of the holds of PhD is to still make you see that WHEN THE QURAN SAY it is easy to Understand. IT IS REFERRING TO those who believe it is easy to understand. there is a condition to understand the Quran.

        You must believe it is easy to understand. before it will be easy for you. SINCE You believe it is NOT easy to understand. then your believe is obviously applying to you. YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND.

        On the Topic of Abrogation…..

        I asked you how many verse of the Quran has been abrogated. I dont know if you took time to study the article on the subject. But make sure you do. just Google this ; “The lie of abrogation” read all presented argument, and disprove about 5 or 6 points. then you will be making sence. TO claim there is abrogation in the Quran is nonsense and an insult to the Quran. What happens to the verses in the PRESERVED TABLET in Heaven? Are they also abrogated there too?? Your logic’s NEVER add up. but i interestingly await your “ACCREDITED LIST OF ABROGATED VERSES”

        Now ON THE VERSES YOU ARE QUOTING…. Since people like you HAVE NO SINGLE clear verse legitimizing hadith, you resorted to tricks christian use to defend the divinity of christ and the false concept of trinity. statements such as ;

        they claim JESUS said, “I and my father are one”. “In the begining was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God”,”There are three that bear withness in heaven, the father,…” and blah blah blah.

        But if you have succeeded in being deceived, I AM NEVER DECEIVED.

        Messenger is =(Muhammed + Quran).

        And there is NO WAY we will Obey ALLAH without Obeying THE MESSAGE that COMES out from the lip of of the PROPHET(Quran).

        Do you mean that when the prophet was preaching the Quran. WHen he says to the people “Obey ALlah and Oney his messenger” IT MEANS THAT This words i am saying to you are Allahs, BUT HERE IS MINE!!. Can you imagine the absurdity in your claim.

        Now let me show you why God uses the term “Obey Allah and Obey the messenger”

        First What Message DID the prophet preach??

        We are told in the Quran that the prophet did not receive any revelation from God other than the Quran:

        “Say (O Muhammad), “What is the greatest testimony?” Say, “God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches.” 6:19

        The inclusion of the phrase “obey the Messenger” after “Obey God” serves a number of important purposes:

        A- Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of God’s revelations directly from God? No one! Consequently, they cannot obey God except through Muhammad’s delivery of the Quran. The Quran came out of Muhammad’s mouth. This makes it necessary for God to command people to obey the messenger since he is the one who delivers to them God’s message. Moreover, the messenger did not just deliver the Quran and vanish! The prophet spent all his years from the time he received the first revelation till his death inviting all people to believe in the Quran and to follow it. Hence it is necessary for God to command all humans to obey the messenger who is inviting them to accept the message (Quran).

        B- The Quran was revealed to Muhammad in order that he would deliver it to a community which was primarily composed of idol worshippers and also some followers of the previous scripture like the Jews and the Christians (Nasara). Once again, and for the benefit of the followers of the scripture, we understand the necessity of the phrase “obey the Messenger”. To make this clear, let us assume that the command in the Quran did not contain the phrase “obey the Messenger” but was only a command to “Obey God”. Immediately, the Jews and the Christians (Nasara) would say: “But we already obey God! God has sent us the scripture and we obey it”. Hence, the Quranic command to “obey the messenger” endorses the new message (Quran) which is delivered to all mankind by the prophet Muhammad. The Quran is the final revelation from God to all humans (33:40). The Quran was revealed to mankind so as to supersede all previous scripture:

        “Then we revealed to you (O Muhammad) this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them.” 5:48

        2- The duty of the Messenger

        “And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)” 5:92

        “And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)” 64:12

        When we look at the above Quranic words, we note that God has defined very clearly the only duty of the Messenger, that being to deliver the message (Quran).
        We also have in the above Quranic verses a very strong link between:

        1- Obeying the messenger
        2- The sole duty of the messenger was to deliver the message

        1 + 2 = we must obey the message he delivered.

        The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering.

        3- Is it obey “Muhammad” or “obey the Messenger”?

        God is the most efficient in expressing any meaning. All Quranic words are chosen by God to convey a precise meaning.

        We never read anywhere in the Quran words like “Obey God and obey Muhammad” or obey Jesus, or Moses. The words used are always “obey the messenger”. This is to emphasise that it is the “message” of God that is to be obeyed and not the personal words or views of the messenger.

        As mentioned earlier, the word Messenger is derived from the word Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger means to obey the message he delivered.

        4- The only ‘message’ revealed to Muhammad was the Quran

        In reply to this Quranic truth, the proponents of hadith claim that they have no problem with the fact that the only duty of Muhammad was to deliver the message, but they quickly add that the hadith and sunna of Muhammad are part of the “message” and were inspired by God! They base this claim on a corrupted interpretion of 53:3-4.

        I can continue FOREVER.

        The Quran also confirms that Muhammad was commanded not to teach any other teachings, otherwise he would incur severe punishment from God:

        “A revelation from the Lord of the worlds. Had he attributed anything falsely to Us. We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Aorta, none of you would be able to prevent it.” 69:43-47

        Muhammad was made to swear that the only revelation he received from God was the Quran. This exposes all the allegations which claim that Muhammad received revelations from God independent of the Quran, and which is referred to as ‘Hadith Al-Qudsy’ (sacred hadith). or any other HADITH for that matter.

        We find them SLANDERING the prophet in A hadith even though they know the above verses VERY CLEARLY. “I have been given the Quran and something similar” ~~~~ Yet we find hadith claiming that This SIMILAR revelation SHOULD NOT be written down.

        The prophet never wrote it
        Khulafa Rasheedun NEVER wrote
        Not even the other companions
        or the Companions of the companions.

        All we have as your most authentic is the book of Bukahri which is centuries REMOVED from the prophet, Have you read the CHINESE WHISPER?? I think you should

        “Say, “What is the greatest testimony?” Say, “God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.” Say, “I do not bear witness”. Say, “He is but One God and I am innocent of the Shirk which you commit.” 6:19

        If the ‘Hadith Al-Qudsy’ was truly a revelation received by Muhammad from God (as is falsely claimed) we would expect the Quran, being fully detailed, to include such confirmation. Needless to say, no where in the Quran is there any indication that Muhammad received anything from God other than the Quran.

        You Have a problem!!! YOU DONT BELIEVE IN THE QURAN, If you DO it will be enough for you brother Darwish.

        Salaam!!!

        Like

    2. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Thanks yaks4U;

      ———————————————————————

      You said:
      “1) “I am leaving for you two things that you must uphold, the Quran and my Sunnah” (According to
      Muwatta 46/3).”

      “2) “I am leaving for you the Quran and my relatives (Ahl Al- Bayt)” (According to Muslim 44/4, Nu 2408;
      Ibn Hanbal 4/366; Darimi 23/1, Nu 3319).”

      “3) “I am leaving for you the Quran; you shall uphold it” (According to Muslim 15/19, Nu 1218; Ibn Majah
      25/84, Nu 3074; Abu Dawud 11/56, Nu 1905).”

      My reply:

      To start with, I don’t blame you for not getting the meaning in a proper way as you are not a native Arab. Islam descended in Arabic. Arabic Language/Dictionary/Vocabulary/Meanings are the responsible tool of delivering the religion of Islam (including Quran) to the world. Unlike the Bible exists today! Jesus (PBUH) never spoke Greek! Yet original scriptures are in Greek not in Jesus’ native language who spoke Aramaic and wrote Hebrew!

      Most of Non-Arab Muslims sort to Non-Arabic Islamic sources which were translated. And translations always eats a part of meanings and interpretations. Even translated Quran loses a lot of its Arabic Eloquence. Muslim scholars always tried to translate to other languages in order to meet Non-Arab Muslims needs. But unfortunately, available Non-Arabic Islamic Resources are waaaaay less than what are available in Arabic. Waaaaaaay less detailed. And in many occasions loses the essence and meaning of the subject its intended to.

      Throughout history, non-Arab Muslim Scholars had to travel to Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Mecca and Medinah in order to learn Islam, then return back to their people and teach them. Arab scholars were and will remain the richest source of Islam understanding and interpretation for a simple reason, Allah had chosen their language to encapsulate His message to humanity.

      Brother, your English looks way better than me, but my Arabic is waaaay better than yours, and honestly … I always notice miss-interpretations to the Quran made by you. I don’t know what your sources are! … but definitely, it succeeded take you away from one of the core resources of Islam, the Sunnah.

      Going back to “what’s looking contradicting” in the last sermon “Khutbat Al-Wadaa”:
      First: One of the pillars of Sunnah understanding and interpretation, is to put all “same occasion” Hadith’s altogether on the table and study them. They all can be said in one speech. Even if they appeared same in some words and different in others. No problem in that! … I will explain further … assume we’ll ask students of one classroom not to write anything down said by the teacher during the lecture but listen carefully instead. Then ask them to memorize what the teacher said. If, after the class room, you’ll ask these students to till the words of the teacher, if we have 50 students, you’ll have 50 different tales roaming around the same subject of course but different but not typical in words.

      Now guess what, in order to re-compose what the teacher said out of such 50 tales said by the 50 students, you’ll need to put all of them on the table and gather what are similar and what are different until the picture clears up and you’ll reach to, let’s say, 90% of what the exact lecture was. The more students attending the lecture is the nearer and nearer to 100% collection of what been told.

      Same token for the Sahaba, my friend. Imagine! … No loud speakers or microphones! It’s the bare voice level of the Prophet. The Prophet is on his camel. Muslims are nearly 100,000 looking at him and trying to listen carefully. If one Muslim will cough per second, there will be a huge noise out of coughing enough to distort the heard words! … It’s most probably some had gripped words A, B, C, E & G … others had griped words C, D, E and F ,,, others had gripped words A, B, C, H, G … but you’ll never (for a long speech like Khotbat Al-Wadaa) find a person who gripped the full A, B, C, D, E, F & G completely! … unless he had a Walky-Talky with audio recorder!

      So, Muslim Hadith scholars, usually don’t feel bad, neither offended with different instances of the same “issue” Hadith … rather, they put all on the table and analyze until they get the core message and sometimes omit some “very different” instances being not-inline to the rest.

      Now, enemies of Islam make use of such differences to miss-lead fresh Muslims, shallow knowledge Muslims, and more frequently, non-Arab Muslims being most vulnerable.

      —————————————————————————

      Back to the explanation of what seems different instances in “Khutbat Alwadaa”. Yes, all your three mentioned instances appeared in Sunnah Books … some in different order, however:

      1) What you translated being “relatives” are in fact meant to be the “wives of the Prophet”.

      2) Now, Shia love to interpret as Hazrat Ali Bin Abi Taleb, His wife Fatima and their descendants in order to assert their wrong doctrine of believing such “specific” relatives are divine and conveying messages from Allah even after the Prophet death! … But what proves their wrong interpretation of “relatives” is the fact that it must include ALL THE RELATIVES of the Prophet … not only Ali and Fatima!

      3) Different instances of “Khutbat Alwadaa” … Muslim scholars had extracted an “assembled” picture. That orders Muslims after the death of the Prophet to hang on the Quran and his Sunnah and to take care of his wives after him (as wives of the Prophet were prohibited from marrying any man after he passes away. Such prohibition made them without any support from any husband, therefore, they needed a special announcement.) … and before you claim “ahl baiti” shouldn’t be interpreted as “my wives” … I’ll till you … NO … in the essence of Arabic Language, and the habit of 7th cen. Arabs, they always called their wives as “ahl baiti” … take it or leave it.

      That said, I honestly don’t find a problem in the multi-instance in Hadith Books that talk about same incident. … It’s just a compilation of the whole picture.

      And by the way, … this also proves the strict standard Hadith writers had followed! Again, their job was to confirm the source back to the Prophet regardless contents.

      Now, of course there are volumes of Hadith that are 100% typical word for word appeared in almost all Hadith books … There are even scholars who collected typical Hadiths from all books in a single book … and there are scholars who collected typical Hadiths appeared in Bukhari and Muslim.

      ——————————————————————————–

      On the topic of ABBROGATION:

      >>> Yes, I studied the subject of Abrogation, and have a decent background about it and a full knowledge on it’s types, reasons, qualifications, qualifiers, references, divine goals, even contradicting instances about Abrogation in Hadith books.

      >>> It was enough to me from the KEY WORDS of Google Search you advised me to do (The lie of abrogation) … to figure out what kind of Google search results would pop up … and sure enough, it will impress a Quranist! … And sure enough it’s miss-leading from an objective academic point of view. I spent days and nights Googling it before even you (thankfully) advise me of doing so. And I would have to say, they are always missing the point, miss-translating Arabic, commit fallacious judgment, cherry pickers or infected by other miss-guided sects.

      ——————————————————————————–

      On the topic of “Obey Allah and Obey the Prophet”:

      From where did you come up with such magical formula:
      Messenger is = (Muhammed + Quran) ????

      I think you missed multiplying it with Speed of Light then dividing by the Gravitational Universal Constant! … lol … I’m just joking.

      No, my friend, Muhammad is the messenger, clearly under day light said in the Quran 48:29 “Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, ….” … There is no turn around … And I wonder if you know that Allah in 99% incidents in Quran referred to Muhammad by saying “The Messenger” out of EXTREME RESPECT to Muhammad and to leverage him above all other Prophets. But of course had to call him in few locations straight by his bare name “Muhammad” to close the door for those idiots who might appear in the future claiming the Muhammad is not the Messenger of Islam for his name never been mentioned in Quran!

      And obviously, Quran is the Message … (but not all the message from a Sunni point of view).

      Now, if you will play the game of metaphory, that Quran being holding the teachings of Allah shall then be considered a “Messenger” … Then I’ll accept it only when you accept me (myself) as a “messenger of Allah” too for holding some teachings of Allah and conveying them to others.

      Let’s correct your formula, bro:
      Messenger is = (Muhammad)

      >>> I loved your paragraph:
      ” Do you mean that when the prophet was preaching the Quran. WHen he says to the people “Obey ALlah and Oney his messenger” IT MEANS THAT This words i am saying to you are Allahs, BUT HERE IS MINE!!. Can you imagine the absurdity in your claim.” …

      Because simply you’ve proved that other words of the Prophet are just as crucial as Quran in understanding Islam. … Since it’s obvious the Prophet did say thousands of words other than Quran during his life … and it’s obviously absurd to assume he had ordered his people:
      THESE WORDS ARE PARTS OF QURAN FOR YOU TO STRICKTLY FOLLOW, AND THESE OTHER WORDS ARE JUST MINE OF WHICH YOU CAN/MAY IGNORE AND DON’T REALLY TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY! …
      Can you imagine how absurd it is, my friend?! …

      Such absurdity puts sane people among us under only one choice … All words exited the mouth of the Prophet either Quran or Hadith must be taken seriously.

      And guess what?! … Quranists un-believably take the absurd version.

      ——————————————————————————————–

      My brother, I feel how honest you are in putting your case on the table. And I know your knowledge is limited by the sources you were exposed to. And I don’t blame you. But to be honest, you still need to conduct a deeper research, and always remember the fact that: It can’t be few thousands Quranists (of which mostly non-Arabs) appeared less than 100 years ago had discovered the truth of which 2 Billion Sunni Muslims existed since the death of the Prophet couldn’t find yet!

      The Prophet said, “My Umma never vote in majority for a wrong matter about Islam” … Now Shia are 75 million around the world. Ahmadi’s are far less. Other sects (including Quranists) are much less … Compare them to 2 BILLION SUNNI Muslim … doesn’t that ring a bill? … And just to make sure you won’t escape from the sheer Sunni numbers by claiming I had committed a “Ad pabulum ad homonym” fallacy and say to me “Majority doesn’t necessarily reflect the truth” … of which I agree in general … but After Quran said that ALLAH PROMISSED THAT ISLAM WILL PREVAIL … it just makes the majority of Muslims to be the reliable indication for the true Islam, indeed.
      ————————————————————————————————-

      At last, … just to conclude our discussion … I want to put this hypothetical question to you:
      If there are some words, written in an X-book, words not from Quran but were 100% proven being said by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), these words include some TO-DO’s and NOT-TO-DO’s … are you going to obey them, knowing they are from the Prophet? … Or you’re going to say … “No! Even they are 100% sourced by the Prophet but because they were not mentioned in the Quran, I’m not going to obey?”

      I love to know your answer for such hypothetical scenario…

      Allah bless…

      Like

      Reply
      1. yaks4u Avatar
        yaks4u

        Thanks for you response, an i hope you and your family had a nice travel..

        Your boast about Arabic is ENOUGH.. You like JUSTIFYING wrongs with your SAID understanding of Islam.. Now here is what The Qur’an says first about ARABS and then about the Arabic Language..

        9:97 : “The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.”

        If according to YOUR MOST FREQUENT EXCUSE, My Arabic is poor… THEN Why is it that The Original people of the language still DO NOT UNDERSTAND the message of Allah to the extent that THE QUR’AN ACKNOWLEDGES IT??? …

        The Quran was revealed in Arabic, but God promised to be its teacher (55:1-4) and the One to explain it (75:18-19). God told us in the verse (41:44) that language is irrelevant, and that only the sincere ones are going to understand the Quran irrespective of their language; while those who are not sincere or failed to worship Him alone will fail to understand it, even if they speak, read, and write Arabic (56:79).

        You might simply claim that ALL my assertions are WRONG because i dont understand Arabic.. My Arabic might not be good as yours.. BUT with EDWARD LANE LEXICON, and some other mordern day tools and dictionary.. IT ONLY takes a LITTLE EFFORT as well as an OPEN MIND and sincerity of a believing heart to understand the Quran.

        Do you, a ‘SUNNI’ claim that the SHIAS also LACK understanding like me?? because apparently we have Millions of Arabs who are SHIAS and believe that the prophet said QURAN and Ah-lu Byt.

        Its rather a problem of DOGMATISM AND CLINGING UNTO WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED TO FROM CHILDHOOD.

        JUST TO PROOF YOU WRONG.. there are sheiks from saudi arabia whose native tongue is ARABIC who stand for the position of the QURAN….

        The majority of ARABS do not need to be MUSLIMS WHO FOLLOW THE QUR’AN ALONE BEFORE I KNOW IT IS RIGHT… YOU analogy is Very wrong.. considering that ARABS are the worst in UNBELIEVE as asserted by the Qur’an.

        ON THE ISSUE OF RECREATING A TEACHERS LECTURE.. ARE YOU NO SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE LEG??

        it is interesting to know that a one day lecture according to you within the same day by 50 students might reproduce an accuracy of 90%. Lets agree for sake of this discussion THAT THEY CAN REPRODUCE 90 percent.

        Now.. How is it possible, That after OVER 200years, an Accuracy of 50 percent can even be reached?? in your statement A CRY WAS HEARD.. THE MORE THE PEOPLE, THE MORE ACCURATE.. why then do you follow most hadiths THAT ARE MOSTLY ahaad? witnessed by ONE person.. IN MOST CASES Abu Huraira.. WHY DONT YOU APPLY YOUR ANALOGY HERE..WHY THE INTELLECTUAL DOUBLE STARNDARD??…

        Going by your understanding.. We might not even get a 1.8 % Reconstruction JUST CONJECTURE. I did not even factor the time lapse which is a great factor affecting quality of information.. But i know you will come up with a different EXCUSE to deny the truth..

        Here is what the Quran has to tell you…

        “Shall I seek OTHER THAN GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? ….The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you away from the path of God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they fail to think.” (6:114-116)

        READ ABOUT THE CHINESE WHISPERS .. http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/chinese_whispers_%28P1155%29.html

        ABROGATION IS A FALSE TEACHING BROTHER.. Many are waking up to it…. You just cling unto it without being ready to let go, JUST LIKE THE CHRISTIAN HOLDING ON TO A DOCTRINE HE HAS ALWAYS BELIEVED IN EVEN IN THE SIGHT OF NEW EVIDENCE… Just keep reading on the topic..

        I was born a sunni.. I grew up as one.. went for arabic and islamic clases till i grew up.. Upheld teachings from these very books that are NOTHING but HEARSAY and CONJECTURE..

        I had to rethink and re-evaluate. I DID NOT STURBONLY cling like the christian clinging to the devinity of christ.. or the sunni or shia sturbonly clingng to secondary sources that CANNOT BE SOURCES of RELGIOUS LAW.

        You are silent on so many questions that i asked…

        From the Quran, WE KNOW THAT MUHAMMED WAS ALSO ASTRAY until God guided him.

        002:198 (Khan)
        There is no sin on you if you seek the Bounty of your Lord (during pilgrimage by trading, etc.). Then when you leave ‘Arafat, remember Allah (by glorifying His Praises, i.e. prayers and invocations, etc.) at the Mash’ar-il-Haram. And remember Him (by invoking Allah for all good, etc.) as He has guided you, and verily, you were, before, of those who were astray.

        Until revelation started coming to Him, HE was also astray.. Hence.. Muhammed ONLY became a messenger, and started claiming messengership ONLY when the MESSAGE came to HIM.. THE MESSAGE is (THE WHOLE QURAN). STOP THROWING DUST INTO OUR EYES.. We can also read the Quran..

        And please brother… How about the other Quranic verses i quoted for you in my previous post and AKSED HOW YOU WOULD RELATE TO THOSE VERSES… WHAT DO THEY MEAN TO YOU… I need your respons on them :

        “For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail, – a guide and a mercy to all who believe.” (7:52)

        “Say: ‘Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.’” (6:114)

        “It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.” (12:111)

        “We have neglected nothing in the Book.” (6:38)

        Verily God has spoken the truth. How did you, Darwish, react to these verses of Allah?

        Like

    3. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Thanks “yaks4u” for your response and thanks for the good wishes. Allah bless you.

      ——————————————————————————-

      You said:
      9:97 : “The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.”

      My reply:
      1- The pronunciation of “Arabs” in this verse is in fact “A’raab” not “Arabs”.
      2- A’raab are those Bedouins who live in a tent in the desert and keeps in the move search for grass for their cattle.
      3- A’raab are famous being hardheaded, bully’s and tough interaction with other. Most probably the harsh desert environment had painted them with similar attitude.
      4- Arabs and A’raab are two different terms and reflects two different descendants.
      5- Arabs are two main branches:
      a- Genuine Arabs: Their great grandfather is “Qahtan”. Existed in Yemen then spread into the peninsula. BTW, I’m a genuine Arab, descends to Qahtan.
      b- Arabnized Arabs: Their great grandfather is “Ishmael” PBUH the son of Abraham PBUH. Torah calls them Ishmaelites. They are called Arabnized Arab as Ishmael is originally from Palestine not from the peninsula but moved with his father Abraham to peninsula and he basically who established the City of Mecca after water fountained underneath his legs, called later on Zamzam well. A famous story. Prophet Muhammad PBUH is their descendant. Ie. Prophet Muhammad PBUH is an Ishmalite. Arabinzed Arab.
      6- So when Arabs are mentioned its Genuine Arabs (Qahtani’s) and Arabnized Arabs (Ishmalites).
      7- Those mentioned in the verse were A’raab no Arabs. I understand how confusing this to you being non-Arab and obviously lack some knowledge about the area.
      8- BTW, A’raab is a plural. The single is A’raabi.
      9- The main difference between Arabs and A’raab is that the first were civilized, lived in metro cities like Mecca and Yemen, composed cultures and heritages, had their political power in the peninsula. While A’raabi lived in the desert, never lived in fixed homes but in moveable tents, travel all around the year, never composed a civilization.
      10- The language spoken by Arabs is “Arabic” the language of the Quran. But A’raabi spoke Aramaic and some other ancient languages. BTW, they still exist today in Saudi Arabia. Most of them is still living in the southern desert and still have their own language, not Arabic, and still in Tents. Saudi Government tried in many attempts to build them villages and little towns so they settle but still a big part of them refuse to live but in a tent. When you see A’raabi’s you think time has stopped since thousands of years!

      So! … after giving you some introduction about A’raabi’s mentioned in the verse 9:97, pls. note the following:
      1- You failed to pronounce them properly.
      2- It’s obvious you were unaware of the difference between Arabs and A’raabi. Quran translators to English were careful about this!
      Yusuf Ali: “Arabs of the desert” … Tried to explain A’raabi to the English readers!
      Sahih International: “The Bedouins” … Used the straight forward term!
      Muhsin Khan: “The Bedouins” … Again the straight forward term!
      Dr. Ghali: “The Arabs of the desert” … as Yusuf Ali, tried to explain it.
      Shakir: “The dwellers of the desert” … Shakir never even used the term “Arab” or “A’raabi”!

      I told you pal. Translation takes a little bit from the essence of the word.

      3- A’raabi people were picked by Quran being the most tending to not understand Islam and being hypocrite because they were the least people exposed to Mecca during the Prophet life. They were ignorant about Quran. Unfortunately no Internet and Facebook these days to convey Mecca news on daily bases to them.
      4- However, not all A’raabi’s were mentioned negatively. Those who lived nearer to Medina were more exposed to Islam and the news and they did a good job embracing Islam and supporting the Prophet. Quran did still mention those A’raabi in a good manner. TWO VERSES LATER … 9:99 “But among the bedouins are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of [obtaining] invocations of the Messenger. Unquestionably, it is a means of nearness for them. Allah will admit them to His mercy. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

      I wonder how didn’t you pick this verse?! … Is it cherry picking?! … Is it trying hard to find whatever supports your argument (which even doesn’t, I’ll show you later)?! … Or it’s simply ignorance that two verses later another verse talks good about A’raabi’s?! …

      NOW EVEN 9:97 DOESN’T PROVE YOUR ARGUMENT AT ALL! … There are still Arabs (not A’raabi) who rejected Islam … There are Arab Jews … There are Arab Christian … There are Shia … Don’t they know Arabic?! Thy do … but simply they have locks in their hearts. They didn’t accept the truth!

      Knowing Arab doesn’t “guarantee” you become a Muslim! … like knowing the Laws of the UK doesn’t “guarantee” you are a good citizen!

      So, your point suffered from two issues:
      1- It’s lacks the proper translation and understanding of the verse 9:97.
      2- It’s not even a good argument.

      ————————————————————————————————————

      Verse 41:44 “Had We sent this as a Qur’an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?” Say: “It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!”

      1- It doesn’t say “language is irrelevant” … from where did you bring this translation?! … Or did you “as usual” try to put your own words?! … Since Mushriks of Mecca had refused the Arabic Quran, Allah is exposing them that no hope with them even if He will descend the Quran in a different language, they will still refuse it, but using a different set of fake reasons. Like Muhammed is Arabic but brought a non-Arabic book. Or, we don’t understand the Quran being from a different language. They will not become short of reasons behind rejecting the Quran.

      2- The verse is straight forward … “It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe” .
      Now, if you want to call yourself a believer, you must believe the Quran in its entirety. Not to take a portion and leave the other, or twist the meanings either deliberately or out of ignorance. Or taking VERY ODD interpretations and ignoring the vast majority accepted interpretations. That’s what makes you a believer, pal.

      ———————————————————————————

      You said:
      “EDWARD LANE LEXICON, and some other mordern day tools and dictionary”

      My Reply:
      It might help you understand Arabic but surely not enough to understand Islam. You need to refer to the approved, vastly accepted scholars supported by facts and deep Arabic knowledge.

      What are you rejecting (the Sunnah) is not a game at all! … 90% of Muslims are considering it a Pillar of Islam and a crucial source and deen. We are not debating some fikh ahkam here but being a Muslim or not, should you be aware of what we are about!

      ———————————————————————————

      You said:
      “Its rather a problem of DOGMATISM AND CLINGING UNTO WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED TO FROM CHILDHOOD.”

      My Reply:
      I heard this statement many times before from Atheists!
      No Pal. I rely on proven sources built on LOGIC, FACTS.
      And when I hear an Atheist saying this to me I reply him/her (and I mean it) … I can prove Allah’s Existence via many routs … Through Biology, Physics and even bare mathematics!

      ———————————————————————————————-

      THE VIDEO LINK IN YOU TUBE:

      No contradiction between this Saudi Arabian Scholar and me! …
      He is against the false Hadiths … I agree.
      But he still asserted that this is not an attack on the AUTHENTIC HADITH (minute 0:47) … which I agree and YOU DON’T AGREE! …

      He is after removing them from Hadith Books like Bukhari … I agree … But you DON’T AGREE WITH WHAT LEFT IN BUKHARI.

      He didn’t call of rejecting ALL SUNNAH because some hadith slipped the filter of Bukhari … Which I agree and YOU DON’T AGREE.

      Why every time your arguments end up against you … simply … because you are wrong.

      Batil can’t fight with Haqq for long.

      ————————————————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “it is interesting to know that a one day lecture according to you within the same day by 50 students might reproduce an accuracy of 90%. Lets agree for sake of this discussion THAT THEY CAN REPRODUCE 90 percent.
      Now.. How is it possible, That after OVER 200years, an Accuracy of 50 percent can even be reached?

      Going by your understanding.. We might not even get a 1.8 % Reconstruction JUST CONJECTURE. I did not even factor the time lapse which is a great factor affecting quality of information.. But i know you will come up with a different EXCUSE to deny the truth..”

      My reply:
      You didn’t understand the point here!
      I’ll explain: The Prophet had said 100% of the lecture. 90% were gripped by the students (Sahaba), yes, TIME of seven generations (approx. 200 years) will decay the 90% to – let’s say – to 70% of the lecture – You know what? … I’ll go for 60% … No … 50% … No … 40% (if this will satisfy your ego).

      Such 40% became eternal as they were picked up by Bukhari and written down. Bukhari books traveled time and reached us. The 40% are still there!!!!!! … We have between our hands 40% of what was said by the Prophet … and guess what?! … They are authentic!

      Writing this 40% down 200 years after the Prophet renders your assumption of “continuous decay” practically impossible. After that Bukhari books were copied and copied and copied … spread the whole Islamic world and scholars after scholars kept discussing onwards.

      No one assumes Sunnah books had contained every word exited from the Prophet Mouth. The Prophet must have said number of words more than what appears in Sunnah books. It’s a simple common sense. However, Allah is all knowing. And since Allah promised to protect the Deen, such 40% Muslims recorded is enough to guide (and keep them) in the right way.

      The other “lost” 60% might be just a repetition of the 40% or even abrogated and Allah deliberately caused Sahaba to forget. No body knows. But what’s I’m sure of is that Allah fulfils His promise of protecting the Deen.

      ————————————————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “or the sunni or shia sturbonly clingng to secondary sources that CANNOT BE SOURCES of RELGIOUS LAW.”

      My Reply:
      Aoootho Billah … That’s WRONG. Sunnah is all about Fikh and source of Religious Law. Most of the details of the Sharia Law has been sourced from Sunnah.

      In fact, a Quranist woman will end up with very few laws of religion, because most of women laws in Islam reached us through Sunnah via Aisha the Prophet’s wife. Most of women related matters were taught to Aisha then she conveys to Muslims women after wards.

      All deep and sensitive questions about a Woman life, Muslim ladies felt shy to ask the Prophet directly. They resorted to Aisha (and other wives of the Prophet). They asked the Prophet then replied back to the ladies.

      After the Prophet death, Aisha became a HUGE source of Sunna and Laws as she witnessed the very private life of the Prophet.

      Quran gave headlines about women and field of Marriage, Divorce, Inheritance, and Fundamental Rights. But that’s not everything a woman life goes through. Sunnah, mainly narrated via Aisha, covers the rest.

      —————————————————————————————————-

      You said:

      Quoted from Quran:
      “For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail, – a guide and a mercy to all who believe.” (7:52)
      “Say: ‘Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.’” (6:114)
      “It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.” (12:111)
      “We have neglected nothing in the Book.” (6:38)

      My Reply:
      I agree with the verses. I don’t agree with your interpretation to them.
      The very same book asked you to obey Allah and obey the Prophet.
      Take whatever the Prophet gives to you.

      And you insist to pick the Quran only. That’s against what Quran teaches.

      ————————————————————————————————–

      Last, you didn’t address/answer the hypothetical question I put to you in my last reply!!!!!!!
      It’s a Boolean question. Answerable by a single word “Yes” or “No” … “True” or “False” … “1” or “0”.

      I put it again:
      If there are some words, written in an X-book, words not from Quran but were 100% proven being said by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), these words include some TO-DO’s and NOT-TO-DO’s … are you going to obey them, knowing they are from the Prophet? … Or you’re going to say … “No! Even they are 100% sourced by the Prophet but because they were not mentioned in the Quran, I’m not going to obey?”

      ———————————————————————————-

      Thanks

      Like

      Reply
      1. Muslim Avatar
        Muslim

        Alhamdullilah. You agree with the sheik that some hadeeth presented as SAHIH is FALSE. B.. It has NOT BEEN EASY GETTING YOU TO ADMIT THIS..

        He said.. HE HAS NO PROBLEM with the words of the prophet{because the prophet ONLY PREACHED AND PRACTICED THE QURAN} BUT rather what is presented as AUTHENTIC… So it is clear that THE SO CALLED SAHIH books has problems from the sheikhs admission.

        He went ahead to give an EXAMPLE…. The killing of apostates[a cornerstone teaching in SAHIH books] which he said IS CATEGORICALLY against the Quran! So he has problems not with just ANY false hadith but with what is presented as authentic… GO back and listen to him.

        Since you have made the FIRST admission that there is SOMETHING wrong with the SO Called Sahih hadeeth… NO NEED TO RESPOND to other statements.

        TO clear your misconception about me[you seem to have a prejudice]… I don’t identify as a Quranist BUT A MUSLIM. and I ONLY SUBSCRIBE to the QURAN FOR RELIGIOUS LAWS(ALLAH ALONE). The hadeeth serve good references for historical facts..but just like EVERY OTHER HISTORICAL COMPILATION.. They are heavy with biases, lies, fairy tales. just like Diamond mixed with glasses.. a lot of glasses with VERY little diamonds. THE QURAN IS THE ONLY true filter. Making ISNAD almost irrelevant and giving Matn(content) in relation to the Quran most important. NO ONE KNOWS WHO IS RIGHTEOUS OR NOT.(Only Allah knows). But somehow.. Usul hadeeth is able to know who is righteous and trustworthy to compile hadith from.. This is wishful thinking.

        I am happy about your admittance… at least, thats how THE EYE OPENING PROCESS STARTS..lol

        Interpolations, sections removed, etc from some hadith by Bukhari.. Thats another claim by the saudi sheik..

        Here… watch..

        My claim ~~ There are errors IN THE SAHIH COLLECTIONS, Immediately renders them suspect and must be filtered with the furqaan before ANY of it be accepted either for its historical value or whatever else.

        Salaam

        Like

    4. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      > “Alhamdullilah. You agree with the sheik that some hadeeth presented as SAHIH is FALSE. B.. It has NOT BEEN EASY GETTING YOU TO ADMIT THIS..”

      Brother, you’re losing the track of the discussion!
      We’re not debating Bukhari’s content being all authentic or not, but whether authentic hadeeth is to be considered a pillar of Islam or to be ignored!

      I never claimed Bukhari’s content is all authentic. I already mentioned before that no book other than Quran is 100% bullet proof. Sunnah books are no different. And guess what?! It’s not a secret.

      I also see you have lost track with the Sheikh in the YouTube as well!
      The Shaikh aims from pointing out the hadeeths that escaped Bukhari’s filter to elevate the value of what’s remaining and to strengthen the belief on it being “HEPA” filtered … While your aim is to destroy what’s remaining and weakens the belief on it. So think twice what kind of conclusion(s) you’re trying to convince yourself via similar lectures.

      —————————————————————————————

      > “I don’t identify as a Quranist BUT A MUSLIM. and I ONLY SUBSCRIBE to the QURAN FOR RELIGIOUS LAWS(ALLAH ALONE).”

      No! … If you consult with the sheikh in the YouTube about what defines the religious rules in the Muslim life, he will answer you: Four sources, 1) Quran. 2) Sunnah. 3) Ijtihad (scholar reserarches). 4) Qe’yas (superimposing modern events on similar old events during life of the prophet or sahaba, see their response then conclude the Law). … The Sheikh will continue describing … Law extraction is to be done in stages …
      if law doesn’t exist in source (1) then consult with source (2) …
      if it also doesn’t exist in source (2) then consult with source (3) …
      if it also doesn’t exist in source (3) then consult with source (4) …
      and if it doesn’t exist in any of the four sources then use your own best judgement and follow your heart.

      Your position is:
      If law doesn’t exist in source (1) then skip sources (2), (3) and (4) and use your own best judgement!

      However, Muslim scholars usually solve the problem no further than source (3) ….

      Quiz: How many hours a Muslim living in the North Pole (summer season) shall fast every day during the month of Ramadan?

      ——————————————————————————————–

      > “The hadeeth serve good references for historical facts”

      Brother, please stop embarrassing yourself further! I’m sorry to say but such statement gives me a clear idea how ignorant you are about Hadeeth and its weight as a crucial source of “Sharia Law”.

      When the Prophet was told about his concubine Maria the Qobtic delivering a baby boy (Abraham the son of the Prophet) … the Prophet felt very happy and ran to her house saying “HER BABY SAT HER FREE!!!!!!!” …

      Later on, Muslims extracted the Sharia Law of which if a concubine delivers a baby (boy or girl) conceived from her master, she is considered free automatically! She’s not a slave anymore! … The Sharia Law that contributed in freeing millions and millions of concubines throughout the Islamic history.

      Now, find me a verse in the Quran that delivers this piece of Sharia Law?

      Claiming that Sunnah is merely a historical compilation is merely ignorance of what Sunnah is.

      ———————————————————————————–

      > My claim ~~ There are errors IN THE SAHIH COLLECTIONS, Immediately renders them suspect and must be filtered with the furqaan before ANY of it be accepted either for its historical value or whatever else.”

      I liked this claim of yours especially the part of … “must be filtered with the furqan before any of it be accepted” … This was the day and night job of the Muslim scholars throughout history and they reached a quite good level of filtration … keeping diamonds and throwing glass in the garbage …

      And I ask you? … If their filtration efforts are not meeting “your standards”, then did you do your homework filtering them? … Or you’re happy throwing the whole material in the garbage even you’re positive there are some diamonds inside of which if you filter out, they may take you to the ultimate richness (Jannah)?

      ————————————————————————————————-

      Allah bless,,,

      Like

      Reply
      1. Muslim Avatar
        Muslim

        Thanks for the response.

        Even though I have Defined what my believes are to you, you still want to tell me WHAT IS IT I BELIEVE.. Anyways.. lets leave that to ALLah.. HE IS THE ONLY ONE who knows the Heart of men.

        You also claim, I am loosing the track of discussion… I really don’t get you hear.. The post that this to and fro discussion is about ONE THING! The authenticity and reasons why one chooses to follow or reject a hadith or many hadith.

        You may be oblivious of the fact that ONE of the Attributes of DIVINE GUIDANCE is perfect preservation. The moment you admit to the fact that BUKHARI, which is supposed to be THE MOST CORRECT collection of hadith CONTAINS errors then YOU NO LONGER have a case!!! No one is loosing track here!

        BUKHARI CONTAINS Errors… Simple!!! Who then will set those supposed “divine” errors correct?? Scholars?? and where in the Quran HAS God made that their duty!

        You seem to be BLIND to this criteria in the Quran.. “if it had been from none other than Allah you would have found in it Numerous CONTRADICTIONS” is that not one of the reasons we COMPLETELY reject the bible even though we acknowledge some books of the bible to have been given by Allah?? Why then do you still cling to your books of hadith EVEN THOUGH you have admitted that the SUPPOSEDLY most Correct of ALL the Sahih books has errors??

        If the most errror proof method “chain of Narrations” Has failed sahih bukhari, What alter native methods have you proposed to expose the ERRORS in them!!! How do you think!!

        So many Contradictory teachings and errors in these books… some scholars in Saudi arabia criticise over 80 narrators in sahih Bukhari.. whiles some scholars have identified OVER 600 faulty hadith.. BUT PEOPLE OF THE WORLD TODAY CARE ABOUT THEIR IDENTITY and NOT THE MESSAGE.. There is a conspiracy to keep quiet over it BECAUSE the truth might stir controversy..

        You falsely claim :

        if law doesn’t exist in source (1) then consult with source (2) …
        if it also doesn’t exist in source (2) then consult with source (3) …
        if it also doesn’t exist in source (3) then consult with source (4) …
        and if it doesn’t exist in any of the four sources then use your own best judgement and follow your heart.

        You FAIL to back up your claim with ANY QURANIC verse that ISLAM has more than one source…
        ISLAM HAS ONLY one source ~~ THE QURAN!!!! Several verses in the Quran confirms THIS!!

        Let me ask you these questions :

        How did the prophet Muhammed ruled during his life time ? Did he make his own laws or his own regulations?. Did he follow the Quran, contradict the Quran, made a new Quran? Did he change the laws of God ? Where are all these contradictions we see in the Hadiths books coming from ? It cannot be coming from our beloved prophet Muhammed. To know this for a fact, read these verses from our Holy book, the Quran.

        CATEGORICAL DENIAL BY THE QURAN FOR THE REQUIREMENT OF ISLAMIC SECONDARY SOURCES

        Much to the contrary, the Quran is replete with verses which categorically deny the requirement of any other source for religious guidance.

        045:006

        “These are the verses of God that We recite to you with truth. Then in what ‘Hadith’ (statement / narrative) after God and His ‘Ayat’ (verses) will they believe?”

        THE PROPHET WAS INSTRUCTED TO INFORM THE BELIEVERS TO FOLLOW THE QURAN

        006.155
        “And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it (Arabic: fa-ittabi’uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy”

        THE PROPHET WAS ORDERED TO STRICTLY FOLLOW INSPIRATION

        010.109
        “And (O Muhammad) FOLLOW THAT WHICH IS INSPIRED IN YOU, and forbear until God give judgment. And He is the Best of Judge”

        010.015
        “But when Our clear verses (Arabic: Ayatina) are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: “Bring us a reading other than this, or change this,” SAY: “IT IS NOT FOR ME, OF MY OWN ACCORD, TO CHANGE IT: I FOLLOW NAUGHT BUT WHAT IS REVEALED UNTO ME: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).”

        033.002
        “AND FOLLOW THAT WHICH IS INSPIRED IN YOU FROM THY LORD. Lo! God is Aware of what ye do.

        046.009
        “Say: “I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I FOLLOW BUT THAT WHICH IS REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION; I am but a Warner open and clear.”

        006.106
        “FOLLOW THAT WHICH IS INSPIRED IN YOU from thy Lord; there is no God save Him; and turn away from the idolaters”

        006.050
        Say: “I tell you not that with me are the treasures of God, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I BUT FOLLOW WHAT IS REVEALED TO ME.” Say: “can the blind be held equal to the seeing?” Will ye then consider not?

        THE QURAN WAS THE ONLY INSPIRATION THAT PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) RECEIVED FOR PURPOSES OF GUIDANCE AND TO WARN MANKIND

        For mankind’s timeless Divine guidance, the Quran remained the only revelation that was received by the Prophet for this appointed mission.

        006:019

        “Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” Say: “God is witness between me and you; This Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?” Say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness!” Say: “But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him”

        041:001-3

        “Ha Mim: A Revelation from (God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful. A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Quran in Arabic, for people who understand”

        027:91-92

        “I am commanded only that I should serve the Sustainer of this city, Who has made it sacred, and His are all things; and I am commanded that I should be of those who submit; And that I should recite the Quran. Therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright for his own soul, and whoever goes ‘ astray, then say: I am only one of the warners.”

        007.203-4

        “And when you bring not a verse for them they say: Why have you not chosen it? Say: I follow only that which is inspired in me from my Lord. This (Quran) is insight from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy for a people that believe. When the Quran is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy”

        A BELIEVER CANNOT INTRODUCE ANY OTHER SECONDARY SOURCE AS JUDGEMENT ALONG WITH THE QURAN

        068.036-38

        “What is the matter with you? How judge ye? Or have ye a book through which ye learn That ye shall have, through it whatever ye choose?”

        004:105

        “Surely, We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that you might judge between men, as guided by God: so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust”

        005:043

        “But why do they come to thee for decision (People of the Book), when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith”

        005.048
        “To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between the hands (bayna yadayhi) and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires…”

        PROPHET WAS TOLD ONLY TO WARN WITH THE QURAN

        050:045

        “We know best what they say; and you are not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Quran such as fear My Warning!”

        IF THE PROPHET WERE TO INTRODUCE A SAYING IN GOD’S NAME OR FOLLOW ANYTHING BUT THE QURAN, HE WOULD BE PUNISHED

        069:044 And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name

        069:045 We should certainly seize him by his right hand

        069:046 And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart

        069:047 Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath)

        017:073-75
        “And their purpose was to tempt thee away from that which We had revealed unto thee, to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (their) friend!” And had We not given thee strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!”

        So, Brother DARWISH!!!!!! What we find from the above Quranic verses is unequivocal evidence that the Prophet’s only revelation through inspiration for mankind’s guidance was the Quran and by it he judged and used it to warn his people. In effect, the Prophet of God applied a timeless Quran to a time specific period during his ministry.

        Therefore, the only legacy left by the Prophet was the Quran , closing completely the admission of any other source for purposes of Divine guidance to mankind.

        In spite of SEVERAL verses EMPHASIZING the USE of INTELLECT in understanding the Quran… You decided to make it your USE OF INTELLECT/BEST JUDGEMENT the last OPTION.. Following blindly.. No wonder you are SOOOOOOO blind to the clear verses of the Quran! even though you understand Arabic! its unfortunate YOU allude to the fact that THERE ARE OTHER SOURCES OF THE RELIGION ASIDE the Quran!!!!

        45:6 “In which HADITH besides ALLAH and his AYAT Do they believe…” People like you will have response like.. Bukhari.. Muslims… And the shias will say, Al-Kaafi etc.. WHAT A SHAME!!!!!

        Just like the Jews and the Christians, people have invented massive religious concepts and wrote enormous religious books and accepted them as the foundation for their religion(other sources as you claim!) (23:52-56; 42:21). They changed the Religion of God ALONE into a joint stock religion established by God(first source) + messenger(Second source) for the Shias + family of the messenger(third source) + friends of the messenger + their generations + leaders of sects + scholars of sects…

        What a SHIRK!!!!! and MAY ALLAH forgive for IGNORING soooooo much CLEAR verses emphasizing THE QURAN alone in pursuance of fabrications!!!! There are 9 Canonical books of hadith between SHIAS and SUNNIS… All containing CONTRADICTIONS.. Alll side REJOICING with what they have.. One can find WHATEVER one wants in these books.. immediately one will recognize the QURANIC prophesies about such books.. A BOOK THAT CONTAINS WHATEVER ONE LIKES…

        068.036-38

        “What is the matter with you? How judge ye? Or have ye a book through which ye learn That ye shall have, through it whatever ye choose?”

        IN YOUR POST YOU LIE AGAIN!!!!

        You said :
        ”””””””””””””””””””””’
        “..This was the day and night job of the Muslim scholars throughout history and they reached a quite good level of filtration … keeping diamonds and throwing glass in the garbage …
        ”””””””””””””””””””””’
        The Compilers place MORE importance on ISNAAD than MATN.. THE BIGGEST REJECTORS OF HADITHS.. Bukhari Rejected 99% of HIS work!

        The sheikh made a valid point! Most Scholars will ignore TEN Quranic verses to favor only one hadith!!! Eg.. The SEVERAL verses on Religious tolerance and Not forcing man against his will To the VERY famous “Goat eaten” verse on stoning to death. Some madhabs even RULED that some Hadiths CAN ABROGATE the Quran!!!! Astagfirullah!!!! YOU PRETENSE is alarming… These is the reality my brother!!! open your eyes.. scholars where just INTERESTED FIRST in ISNAAD!!!

        Is this what you referred to ‘good level of filteration’
        …………………………..
        Killing shias by Sunnis or Vice verse and bombing of mosques of each other, declaring the killing of other sect lawful all originated from these very books IGNORING the many peaceful verses in the Quran.. THE ULTIMATE LAW OF NEVER fighting Unless it is for self defense is ignored by Muslims.

        Sanctifying the beards forgetting that enemies of the prophet WORE beards… describing the prophet as SEX maniac who had sexual power of thirty men and Ignoring the oft repeated assertion that HE WAS A HUMAN BEING like us.. Claiming He married Ayesa at the age of 7 or 9 When the Quran INSIST of Maturity(Mental, Relgious, Physical) for one of the very many conditions of marriage.
        He sleeps with ALLL his wife in one night even though the Quran said HE SPENT MOST OF HIS NIGTH in Prayer and Dhikir, Allah even Had to tell him to reduce it!!!

        A mercy to the world ‘Beheading 900 Jewish men’ ~ event hough the Quran mentioned that “some you killed and some you took captive”

        Invented miracles for the prophet EVEN THOUGH from the Quran IT WAS VERY CLEAR that the ONLY miracle given to the prophet was THE QURAN

        IF THIS IS THE “GOOD LEVEL OF FILTRATION” you are talking about then i wonder what planet you came from…

        This ARE NOT filtration.. THESE ARE INVENTIONS!!!!…. NEW LAWS!!!.. NEVER AUTHORIZED BY ALLAH or HIS PROPHET!!!!! No where do you have a concrete evidence but ONLY fiery-tales and the TWISTING of verses to reach your Numerous sources Goal.

        YOU HAVE NO CASE BROTHER…. The Quran will Always defeat you Today… tomorrow until FOREVER!!!!! Until You hear these Words from the tips of the prophets LIPS on the day of judgement!!!!!

        025:030

        “Then the Messenger will say: “O my Lord! Truly my people (Arabic: Qawmi) took this Quran for just foolish nonsense / of no account / abandoned it / forsaken it (Arabic: Mahjura)”

        Do well to visit quransmessage.com

        You dont need to believe anything there… just for knowledge purpose.. You are clinging toooooo stubbornly to falsehood. as you have claimed yourself.. errors(falsehood) are in the hadith books!!!!

        Salaam!!!

        Like

    5. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Thanks “Muslim” for your response. I would have to say you brought many interesting points worthy to answer. Some of the points are used by enemies of Islam and, most probably, due to the lack of knowledge you couldn’t confront them with logical answers that’s why in order to keep your inner peace you decided SUNNAH must be wrong therefore rejected it. Unfortunately, enemies of Islam has won the war with you and pushed you in the corner until you decided to turn your guns backward!

      I’ll address your “interesting” points here … Pls. read carefully >>>

      —————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “The authenticity and reasons why one chooses to follow or reject a hadith or many hadith.
      You may be oblivious of the fact that ONE of the Attributes of DIVINE GUIDANCE is perfect preservation. The moment you admit to the fact that BUKHARI, which is supposed to be THE MOST CORRECT collection of hadith CONTAINS errors then YOU NO LONGER have a case!!! No one is loosing track here!”

      My reply:
      That’s a correct analogy when it comes to a book claimed to be divine. ie. Quran, Bible, Telmod, Vidas (Hindus), etc. A single mistake renders the whole book useless.
      However, when it comes to books written by humans and due to the fact that man isn’t proof against errors it MAY contain errors and contradictions. The correct reaction(s) towards such contradictions/errors is to omit or correct but not throwing the whole book in the garbage.

      So, you are basically implying the rule of (complete rejection) to the wrong candidate.

      Though Bukhari (or other Sunnah books) may contain some wrong hadeeths that may slipped his filter but still contains tons of Hadeeth that are authentic and said by the prophet. The proper action towards the wrong ones is to omit them in the newer versions but not to throw the whole book.

      Your analogy can be further emphasized with the following examples:
      > If some engineer, which works for you, had committed a mistake, you decided that he’s always wrong and must be fired!
      > You imported 100 pieces of a certain electronic device from China. Because you found 3 of them are malfunctioning meant for you the whole shipment must be put to garbage.

      Examples are not exhaustive. Simply, you’re doing a mistake by rejecting the whole thing.

      Now, if that engineer is mistaking in all of his actions. Or all 100 Chinese devices prove malfunctioning then in that case only you can apply the “capital” punishment.

      Object: If Muslims prove some Hadeeth’s are wrong/unauthentic they must remove them, but not the whole Hadeeth Book with all of the authentic ones it contains. Pls. remember that we don’t talk about a divine book, but man made book that contains divine instructions (Hadeeth) being sourced by the Prophet.

      So please stop resorting to such analogy. It’s simply, wrong. Besides that the call to reject all other authentic Hadeeth just because we found some false ones, doesn’t look totally innocent.

      ————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “BUKHARI CONTAINS Errors… Simple!!! Who then will set those supposed “divine” errors correct?? Scholars?? and where in the Quran HAS God made that their duty!”

      My Reply:
      Yes, Quran did recommend filtration, indeed. And described those who filter good from bad speeches being those who Allah guided, and those of understanding.

      Verse 39:18 “Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding.”

      Now! … Which “speech” Allah did mean? … Is it his own speech (ie. Quran)? … Does it mean there are “speeches” better than others in what Allah said to us? … Shall we follow some “better” verses in the Quran and reject others?

      Think deep, you’ll end up with one conclusion. The “speeches” in 39:18 are meant to be the words of others than Allah, the Prophet Hadeeth is obviously a valid candidate. And guess what, those who filters them, rejecting the bad and following the good are those whom Allah had guided. It includes any other person’s speech as well.

      The point here is, YES, filtering what we here, adopting the good and rejecting the bad is recommended in Quran.

      —————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “ is that not one of the reasons we COMPLETELY reject the bible even though we acknowledge some books of the bible to have been given by Allah??”

      My reply:
      Pal, you missed the real reason behind why we reject the Bible. Even if today’s Bible was the real one revealed from Allah to Jesus, still we need to reject it since we Muslims are ordered to follow the latest version. The Quran. Jesus himself also ordered his people to follow the latest version of Allah’s religion on Earth that will be brought by the next and final messenger Muhammad (PBUH).

      So, by definition, we reject previous books because we possess the latest version (Quran). Even if such books remained intact.

      ———————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “If the most errror proof method “chain of Narrations” Has failed sahih bukhari, What alter native methods have you proposed to expose the ERRORS in them!!! How do you think!!”

      My reply:
      The first wall of defense is being compliant or contradictive with Quran.
      The second wall of defense is “Narration – Isnad”.
      There are some cases of which the Hadeeth talks about a subject that doesn’t exist in Quran. So, the second wall of defense “Narration” becomes the only available tool.

      There are some other tools like:
      Perfection of Arabic Grammar: Fabricated Hadeeths usually come with weak Arabic in contrast to the professionalism of the Prophet in Arabic.
      Odds: There are many “odds” that Hadeeth science had rejected them. For example: if there are many Hadeeths that order “TO DO” something narrated via many roots/channels … and said by many Sahabah … then all of a sudden one Hadeeth pops up that orders “NOT TO DO IT” … Muslim scholars immediately discards such Hadeeth being ODD.

      Important Note:
      Bukhari and other Sunnah books didn’t forget to write down FALSE Hadeeths in order to warn Muslims about them. Most of Sunnah books included “False” Hadeeth chapters. “Weak Narration Hadeeth” chapters … for the sake of warning Muslims from such Hadeeth.
      Now, enemies of Islam usually quote such Hadeeths based on the fact that they exist in Bukhari … but OF COURSE they wouldn’t till you that such Hadeeths were written under the chapter of “False Hadeeths”. They simply invest on a Muslim’s ignorance about such fact in Sunnah Books.

      Do you know that there are some Sunnah Scholars dedicated their complete books for writing false, invented and weakly narrated Hadeeths! All for the sake of warning Muslims from them. Now, that’s a green playground for Haters of Islam.

      ——————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “whiles some scholars have identified OVER 600 faulty hadith.. BUT PEOPLE OF THE WORLD TODAY CARE ABOUT THEIR IDENTITY and NOT THE MESSAGE.. There is a conspiracy to keep quiet over it BECAUSE the truth might stir controversy..”

      My reply:
      Please provide a reference, author, book name and page for such assertion.
      I love to read the names of such 600!

      ——————————————————————————–

      Brief your-Questions & my-Answers:
      Q. “How did the prophet Muhammed ruled during his life time?”
      A. Ruled according to three channels:
      1- If the judgement was mentioned in Quran, then he ruled according to it.
      2- Judgements revealed to him but were not a part of the Quran, like the uncovering of the assassination Jewish plot against him by dropping a heavy rock over his head on his walk back to home. Or poisoning his food after Khaibar conquer. Such revelations were given to him from Allah but were not considered a part of Quran.
      3- If judgement neither mentioned in Quran nor revealed to him, the Prophet either used his own Judgement or consulted with Sahaba (Shora).

      Q- “Did he make his own laws or his own regulations?.”
      A- Yes. See previous answer.

      Q- “Did he follow the Quran, contradict the Quran, made a new Quran?”
      A- He followed the Quran. Never contradicted it. Never changed a Quranic Law from his own.

      Q- “Did he change the laws of God ?”
      A- Never.

      Q- Where are all these contradictions we see in the Hadiths books coming from?
      A- Sunnah is supposed to 100% comply with Quran (if the issue is already handled in Quran) otherwise it’s no more than a punch of lies and must be omitted from Sunnah books. Again, this is the first wall of defense for authentic hadeeth as mentioned earlier.

      ———————————————————————————————

      You said:
      Quoted from Quran:
      “045:006 … These are the verses of God that We recite to you with truth. Then in what ‘Hadith’ (statement / narrative) after God and His ‘Ayat’ (verses) will they believe?”

      My reply:
      Buddy, this is another misinterpretation. The word Hadeeth in the verse doesn’t mean the “Prophetic Hadeeth” but Allah’s Hadeeth which is, the Quran. Allah is condemning the Mushrik of Mecca for not accepting the Quran and it’s evidences from being from Allah, and makes the sarcastic question, which evidences are enough to your if Quran will not be?!

      The verse is all about Aqeedah/creed/beliefs. It has nothing to do with the Sunnah, my friend.

      ———————————————————————————————-
      You said:
      Quoted various verses from Quran:
      010.109 — 010.015 — 033.002 — 046.009 — 006.106 — 006.050 — 006:019 — 041:001-3 — 027:91-92 — 007.203-4 — 068.036-38 — 004:105 — 005:043 — 005.048 — 050:045 — 069:044 — 069:045 — 069:046 — 069:047 — 017:073-75 …

      My reply:
      Most of these verses re-affirm the concept of Islam, the Aqeeda, Tawheed, worshipping of Allah and believing in Quran. However, never said “Don’t follow the Prophetic Hadeeth!”.

      In addition, according to the vast recognized interpretation of “Obey Allah and Obey the Prophet” … to be a call to adopt the Prophetic Sunnah being another revelation channel from Allah therefore, another source of Sharia Law, we don’t find any contradiction between mentioned verses and Sunnah.

      ————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “Therefore, the only legacy left by the Prophet was the Quran , closing completely the admission of any other source for purposes of Divine guidance to mankind.”

      My reply:
      Sunnah is still a divine guidance revealed from Allah to the Prophet. Therefore your statement Quran being the only legacy is simply, wrong.

      ————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “You decided to make it your USE OF INTELLECT/BEST JUDGEMENT the last OPTION”

      My reply:
      1- It’s the Islamic Fikh (science of Ahkam) not me. And it was put only after Quran, Sunnah, Qiyas and Scholars Ijtihad are exhausted one after another. And also said that most probably you won’t need to do it as the four previous Sharia Law sources will solve the issue for you. So, please quote my statement professionally and refrain from cherry picking. My post is still there, you can revise it.

      2- Please remember that it was you who called for interpreting Quran according to our own intellect/best judgement and throw Sunnah and scholars/experts opinions into the garbage.

      ————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “Just like the Jews and the Christians, people have invented massive religious concepts and wrote enormous religious books and accepted them as the foundation for their religion(other sources as you claim!) (23:52-56; 42:21). They changed the Religion of God ALONE into a joint stock religion established by God(first source) + messenger(Second source) for the Shias + family of the messenger(third source) + friends of the messenger + their generations + leaders of sects + scholars of sects…”

      My reply:
      Though it’s a good point but it doesn’t apply on Sunnah.
      For example, Jews made “interest – Reba” acceptable in a direct conflict with their divine book.
      Christians changed their Aqeedah about God to Trinity, again, in a direct conflict with their divine book.
      Where does Sunnah change the concepts of Aqeedah?
      Where does Sunnah change the Sharia Laws of Quran?

      You bringing such example makes it obvious you’re not aware what you are talking about!

      ——————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “There are 9 Canonical books of hadith between SHIAS and SUNNIS… All containing CONTRADICTIONS.. Alll side REJOICING with what they have.. One can find WHATEVER one wants in these books.. immediately one will recognize the QURANIC prophesies about such books.. A BOOK THAT CONTAINS WHATEVER ONE LIKES…”

      My reply:
      It’s normal to find Shia Hadeeth books conflict with Sunna books. Because righteousness (Haqq) is one. Sunna and Shia being different can’t both represent the Haqq! Our books and their books are no strange being different. In fact, THEY MUST BE DIFFERENT.

      Sunnah and Shia books being different doesn’t prove either side wrong or true without digging the basis and criteria these books were written accordingly. I already spoke about the fundamental problems in Shia Hadeeth Books.

      ——————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “The Compilers place MORE importance on ISNAAD than MATN.. THE BIGGEST REJECTORS OF HADITHS.. Bukhari Rejected 99% of HIS work!”

      My reply:
      Bukhari first collected what’s in the market. Then filtered them. To end up accepting 1% of what he encountered reflects the high standard of his work.

      ——————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      The sheikh made a valid point! Most Scholars will ignore TEN Quranic verses to favor only one hadith!!! Eg.. The SEVERAL verses on Religious tolerance and Not forcing man against his will To the VERY famous “Goat eaten” verse on stoning to death. Some madhabs even RULED that some Hadiths CAN ABROGATE the Quran!!!! Astagfirullah!!!! YOU PRETENSE is alarming… These is the reality my brother!!! open your eyes.. scholars where just INTERESTED FIRST in ISNAAD!!!”

      My reply:
      Hadeeth collectors, like Bukhari and Muslim, focused on Narration and authenticity. However, along of the Islamic History other scholars focused on different aspects like Hadeeth Interpretations and Sharia Laws extracted from.

      ——————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “Is this what you referred to ‘good level of filteration’
      …………………………..
      Killing shias by Sunnis or Vice verse and bombing of mosques of each other, declaring the killing of other sect lawful all originated from these very books IGNORING the many peaceful verses in the Quran.. THE ULTIMATE LAW OF NEVER fighting Unless it is for self defense is ignored by Muslims.”

      My reply:

      1- In general, you’ve committed a professional mistake here! Religions shouldn’t be judged according to the acts of followers but scriptural teachings.

      2- Sunni fight against Shia going on today in Iraq is a self-defense indeed. It looks like you’re not aware of the crimes daily committed by Shia against Sunna since the American invasion of Iraq 2003!
      From that day, American handed the power to Shia. The latter immediately started massacres against Sunnah, rapes, expelling from homes, stealing their wealth and land, unfair trials, mass executions. What Sunni are doing today is merely a self-defense. I live in the area and exposed to the facts. You most probably only exposed to what “biased” TV Channels broadcast.

      3- Never find in Sunnah books orders to kill Shia, while Shia books are full with clear direct calls to massacre Sunnah. I can quote many to you.

      4- Along history, when Sunnah was in power peace reveals. If Sunni were ordered to kill other sects then Ottoman Empire would have annulated the other sects like Shia and Alawi. Vanishing them from the face of earth. But instead, Shia and Allawi’s lived in peace and their “Mushrik” worshipping freedom was granted to them.

      In the other hand, when ever non-Sunni takes power, massacres starts!
      Alawi regime in Syria is massacring Sunni’s today. Obvious to all.
      Shia in Iraq once got power blood shed started.
      Shia Persian regime in Iran discriminates Sunni citizens. City of Tehran has 22 Jewish synagogues while NO SINGLE SUNNI MASJID EXISTS! While Shia masjids exists in all of the Sunni world freely.

      This proves Sunni compliance with Quran teachings of freedom of religions, while Shia are not. So, guess who’s wrong?!

      ——————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “Sanctifying the beards forgetting that enemies of the prophet WORE beards… describing the prophet as SEX maniac who had sexual power of thirty men and Ignoring the oft repeated assertion that HE WAS A HUMAN BEING like us.. Claiming He married Ayesa at the age of 7 or 9 When the Quran INSIST of Maturity(Mental, Relgious, Physical) for one of the very many conditions of marriage.
      He sleeps with ALLL his wife in one night even though the Quran said HE SPENT MOST OF HIS NIGTH in Prayer and Dhikir, Allah even Had to tell him to reduce it!!!”

      My reply:
      Such Hadeeths are about the physical features of the Prophet. It doesn’t really matter to me the Prophet was making sex with all of his wives every night as stated or not in my life as a Muslim today. It’s not a problem if it was correct or wrong. Putting such Hadeeths on the table doesn’t really add to the technical issue we are arguing about.

      Marrying Aisha in her 9 years old:
      That’s also not a problem. From sexual point of view, girls become ready for sexual interaction as soon they start menstruation. Many school girls start making sex from 11 and 12 in the West.
      Marrying with young girls was a common social tradition in the 7th cen. not only among Arabs but all around communities like Indians, Persian and Romans. In the 7th cen. Girls didn’t go to school. They just needed to learn some social skills and get their monthly menstruation to be ready for marriage. In the 7th cen. There were no big cultural and educational gap between 50 years old man and 9 years old girl of which made marriages work fine. So, the Prophet Muhammad had just practiced the acceptable norms in his time.

      Comparing with today’s different attitude, necessity of attending school, the vast difference in mindset between 9 years and 50 years persons made it unsuitable to marry a very young girl. Though it’s perfectly fine in the Islamic law but traditions and norms have changed.

      Being permitted doesn’t mean you’ve to do it. Coca Cola drink being Halal doesn’t mean you have to drink it. The Prophet was once invited to a “Lizard” meal. He didn’t like it and refused to eat but didn’t declare eating Lizards are prohibited.

      What the Prophet has taught us from marrying with the 9 years old Aisha, is that we shall practice the accepted norms and what suites our taste. It’s perfectly Halal in Islam, but I wouldn’t do it as it’s not socially accepted today and sure a vast age difference between couples today is a guarantee for the marriage to fail.

      Those who accuse the Prophet with pedophilia today are just practicing the fallacy of judging the 7th cen. Human with 21st cen. Social attitude/judgement.

      ————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “A mercy to the world ‘Beheading 900 Jewish men’ ~ event though the Quran mentioned that “some you killed and some you took captive”

      My reply:
      I didn’t get your problem here?! … However, If I got your point correctly, Jews were 12 tribes in Medina. Only 3 tribes betrayed the Prophet and were punished by killing 900 of their grown up men, after got defeated in the battle of Khaybar. And others were inslaved. Among them “Safia” who became the wife of the prophet later on.

      I don’t get where you find a contradiction between Sunnah and Quran in this incident!

      ———————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “Invented miracles for the prophet EVEN THOUGH from the Quran IT WAS VERY CLEAR that the ONLY miracle given to the prophet was THE QURAN”

      My reply:
      Where in Quran states that Quran WAS THE ONLY miracle given to the Prophet?

      ——————————————————————————————-

      Thanks …

      Like

      Reply
  21. Muslim Avatar
    Muslim

    And again brother, I researched the topic “Arab and Bedouins” YOU TURNED out to be wrong.. here is a Quranic analysis!!!

    ‘A’rabi’ as a term means ‘Arab’ people irrespective of where they dwell. They could be urban or rural dwellers. It refers to the general Arab people during the Prophetic ministry.

    The term for ‘Bedouin’ is known to the Quran as ‘baduna’ (33:20).

    If one notes the phrase ‘baduna fi’Arabi’ in verse 33:20, i.e. Bedouins / desert dwellers / nomads of the desert among the ‘A’rabi’, one can clearly see that ‘A’rabi’ here would not mean ‘Bedouin’ as the word ‘baduna’ has already been used to describe them.

    Like

    Reply
    1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      You said:
      “The term for ‘Bedouin’ is known to the Quran as ‘baduna’ (33:20).”

      My reply:
      Bro, the word “baduna” doesn’t exist in any Quran English translation of the verse 33:20!

      I’ll put the most famous to you:

      Sahih International:
      “They think the companies have not [yet] withdrawn. And if the companies should come [again], they would wish they were in the desert among the bedouins, inquiring [from afar] about your news. And if they should be among you, they would not fight except for a little.”

      Muhsin Khan:
      “They think that AlAhzab (the Confederates) have not yet withdrawn, and if AlAhzab (the Confederates) should come (again), they would wish they were in the deserts (wandering) among the bedouins, seeking news about you (from a far place); and if they (happen) to be among you, they would not fight but little.”

      Pickthall
      “They hold that the clans have not retired (for good); and if the clans should advance (again), they would fain be in the desert with the wandering Arabs, asking for the news of you; and if they were among you, they would not give battle, save a little.”

      Yusuf Ali
      “They think that the Confederates have not withdrawn; and if the Confederates should come (again), they would wish they were in the deserts (wandering) among the Bedouins, and seeking news about you (from a safe distance); and if they were in your midst, they would fight but little.”

      Shakir
      “They think the allies are not gone, and if the allies should come (again) they would fain be in the deserts with the desert Arabs asking for news about you, and if they were among you they would not fight save a little.”

      Dr. Ghali
      “They reckon that the (allied) parties have not gone away. And in case the (allied) parties come up, they would prefer if they were frequenters among the Arabs (Or: desert dwellers) (of the desert) asking for information about you. And if they were among you, in no way would they fight except a little.”

      Reference website: http://quran.com/33

      You know what? … The word you wrote “baduna” is, in fact, the pronunciation of an Arabic word that translates to “they would wish to, hope to, fain to, etc.” … Most probably you were reading the Quranic verse from a reference that pronounces Arabic but written in Latin and once you encountered the word “baduna” you were mixed up with “bedouins”.

      ——————————————————————————

      Anyway, I’ll be objective with you and till that some “Bedouins” are Arabs and they were called Bedouins because they lived in the desert without any slightest education or civilization. However, not all bedouins are Arabs.

      Going back to the purpose of this discussion, bringing the verse 9:97 in order to condemn bedouins had no score for you being neutralized by the next verse (two verses far) 9:99 stating that some other bedouins were good and honest. 1 against 1, my friend.

      It just was irrelevant to our debate.

      Like

      Reply
  22. Muslim Avatar
    Muslim

    You said:

    Now! … Which “speech” Allah did mean? … Is it his own speech (ie. Quran)?

    My response

    EVERY SPEECH…. The Quran, Philosophy, History(which includes the hadith books), biology. I see the Quran’s ayah to be all encompassing and not limiting its applications. So in my consulting room in the hospital, I STILL LISTEN TO THE SPEECH OF MY PATIENTS AND MAKE MY DIAGNOSIS BASED ON THE best points.

    The Quran also… There are many people (sunnis, shias, sufis) who twist Quranic meanings to justify associating partners (Muhammed + Bukhari) with Allah.. I still listen to them all(sunnis, shias, sufis, za’idis) and follow the best speech.

    Your ignorance with the Quran is SHOCKING!!! Did Allah NOT say the Quran can be interpreted differently??? Why should i NOT listen TO ALL the Various interpret-ions and follow the best??? In your hopeless attempt to make your point you forget the meaning of “listening to the best speech and following the best” and trying to limit its meaning..

    You said:

    Pal, you missed the real reason behind why we reject the Bible. Even if today’s Bible was the real one revealed from Allah to Jesus, still we need to reject it since we Muslims are ordered to follow the latest version.

    My response :

    You also MISSED this point Hopelessly!!!!

    Islam did NOT start with Muhammed!!!!!! It started with Abraham!.. Salaat, Sawm, etc. There had been books given to the PROPHETS since the time of ABRAHAM!!!! THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THESAME!!! God told us in the Quran THAT the message HAS always been thesame but HE ALLOWS MEN to CORRUPT the message to see those who will truely seek the true part!!! – He also PROMISED to protect this one(Quran)

    No where does the Quran say the messages to prophets were different. For the specific LAWS that were changed, ALLAH referenced it. Like :

    “an eye for an eye” the Quran reccomends forgiveness etc. So please stop displaying your lack of ignorance of the Quran!! THE QURAN SAID THE MESSAGE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THESAME… There is no New, Latest etc for God! He does NOT change.. i hope you digest this point!!!

    You said :

    The first wall of defense is being compliant or contradictive with Quran.
    The second wall of defense is “Narration – Isnad”.
    There are some cases of which the Hadeeth talks about a subject that doesn’t exist in Quran. So, the second wall of defense “Narration” becomes the only available tool.

    There are some other tools like:
    Perfection of Arabic Grammar: Fabricated Hadeeths usually come with weak Arabic in contrast to the professionalism of the Prophet in Arabic.
    Odds: There are many “odds” that Hadeeth science had rejected them….

    My response :

    MAN MADE METHODS FOR GODS RELIGION!!! What a shame!!! ou think God will leave what HE PROMISED to protect in the hands of MEN, Who have been desribed by the EVERY Quran that They have been historically NOTORIOUS for Corrupting messages!! is this NOT a contradiction in your logic?? Or rather… Your Hadiths takes a prrority than the Quran!!

    You said :

    Now, enemies of Islam usually quote such Hadeeths based on the fact that they exist in Bukhari … but OF COURSE they wouldn’t till you that such Hadeeths were written under the chapter of “False Hadeeths”. They simply invest on a Muslim’s ignorance about such fact in Sunnah Books.

    My Response :

    We are NOT discussing people who are Ignorant of SAHIH bikahri or those who will take it OUT of context!! I am familair with SAHIH sitta, I have the collections, I have been studying them for over 5years… SO lets forget about enemies of islam who also NOT attack the hadith ALONE but the Quran. We are talking about the APPPARENT erros and dooms in the hadith books!!.

    You said :
    Please provide a reference, author, book name and page for such assertion.
    I love to read the names of such 600!

    My response :

    Jamal al-Banna, a younger brother of Hassan al-Banna (founder of the Muslim Brotherhood) has just published a book in which he argues that 653 of the hadiths as written in al-Bukhari and Muslim are incorrect and should not be accepted. The Arabic book is titled The Cleansing of Bukhari and Muslim from useless Hadiths (2008).

    There are MANY scholarly critisisms that NEVER make it public.. MOSTLY suppressed because of the apparent confusion they might cause!! But here is the fact! The prophet cared about the truth than what the people will think!!!!.

    You said :

    Q. “How did the prophet Muhammed ruled during his life time?”
    A. Ruled according to three channels:
    1- If the judgement was mentioned in Quran, then he ruled according to it.
    2- Judgements revealed to him but were not a part of the Quran, like the uncovering of the assassination Jewish plot against him by dropping a heavy rock over his head on his walk back to home. Or poisoning his food after Khaibar conquer. Such revelations were given to him from Allah but were not considered a part of Quran.
    3- If judgement neither mentioned in Quran nor revealed to him, the Prophet either used his own Judgement or consulted with Sahaba (Shora).

    Q- “Did he make his own laws or his own regulations?.”
    A- Yes. See previous answer.

    Q- “Did he follow the Quran, contradict the Quran, made a new Quran?”
    A- He followed the Quran. Never contradicted it. Never changed a Quranic Law from his own.

    My response :

    The Quran is for the world!!! Not for ARABIA ALONE AND HER CULTURE!!!
    The Quran remains the guide for every civilization!! The prophet kept beards BECAUSE HE WAS ARAB!! But now the hadith SANCTIFIED THE BEARDS and the TURBAN as HOLY acts!! ~ That is the prolem!!

    The Quran is a GUIDE to any people who want to set up a constitutional RULE!!

    Our daily lives must be characterized by the injunctions of the QURAN. Honesty, obedience, worship etc. UNLESS you think the guidance of the Quran is NOT ENOUGH… because this is what you have been claiming INDIRECTLY since. INSISTING we NEED OTHER sources of Guidance and the Quran is NOT enough!!

    He made is own laws BASED on the Quran and the condition of his people. Every islamic nation should also make their OWN laws based on the COMPLETE FURQAAN(Quran) and the condition of her people. THE QURAN REMAINS ultimate. Muhammed CAN MAKE mistakes.. BUT THE messenger CANNOT. Like when he feared the people instead of fearing GOD. Where he frowned from the blind man etc. God told us the porphet is a fallible human being. BUT WITH THE QURAN… he ruled his people!!!

    WHat is presented in HADITH books INTRODUCING ENTIRELY NEW LAWS OUTSIDE THE FOLD of the Quran!!! IS ALL MADE UP and the prophet WOULD NEVER TEACH WHAT is NOT CONTAINED in the Quran. He would have been killed by Allah if he did. Now … several verses quoted in my first response to show to you THAT.. THE ONLY REVELATION recieved by Muhammed was the Quran. Every other revelation is NOT Unque to the prophet alone and WAS never meant to become laws and binding hence its absence from the Quran.

    When Marry recieved WAHI, did it become law?? and several other people who were not prophets, but God spoke to them… SHOULD THEY BECOME LAWS practiced through ages??? Please your arguement is VERY LAME!!!

    You said :

    Buddy, this is another misinterpretation. The word Hadeeth in the verse doesn’t mean the “Prophetic Hadeeth”

    My reply:
    Thank You for putting the words “prophetic hadiths in inverted commas” THEY DO NOT EXIST in the QURAN!!, Nothing in the Quran suggest that there is ANYTHING called prophetic hadiths that is to be followd as a RELIGIOUS GUIDE!!!! ~~

    The problem with you is this.. Most sunnis or shias put themselve in a holy position!!! Thinking that some verses applies to ONLY christians, or jews or Meccan mushriks.. People like you LIMIT the application of the Quran, from a progressive message to a seventh century CONDITIONED message… Thats why both SECT have INVENTED Sababu Nuzool “conditions of revelation” ~ which helps you people to shrink the application of the verse.

    I once read Sura Faatia.. WHere we have in brackets. Jews and christians as those who have earned Gods wrath.. Forgetting there are MANY muslims of are asscoiating partners with Allah.. Like most people do.. God is the Only religious Law maker. NO EVEN THE PROPHET can add to GOds laws, He would be killed if he did that.. But you choose to Invent.. “Prophet hadiths” and excluded the hadiths by calling them prophetic hadith!! What a worship of desires and ego!!! Self made terms. Prophet hadeeth, Sahaba.. and this concept NOT in the Quran!!! made by scholars and supported by people like you without ANY proof whatsoever from the Quran!!!!

    You said :

    Sunnah is still a divine guidance revealed from Allah to the Prophet. Therefore your statement Quran being the only legacy is simply, wrong.

    My reply:

    YOU IGNORE ALL THE VERSES I QUOTED TO MAKE THIS POINT!!!, I did not Make them OUT of Vacum brother… Here are the verses AGAIN!!!!! .. Respond to the verses please..

    THEY ARE UNDER MAJOR HEADINGS> PCIK THEM UP AND RESPOND TO THEM ONE BY ONE :::

    CATEGORICAL DENIAL BY THE QURAN FOR THE REQUIREMENT OF ISLAMIC SECONDARY SOURCES

    Much to the contrary, the Quran is replete with verses which categorically deny the requirement of any other source for religious guidance.

    045:006

    “These are the verses of God that We recite to you with truth. Then in what ‘Hadith’ (statement / narrative) after God and His ‘Ayat’ (verses) will they believe?”

    THE PROPHET WAS INSTRUCTED TO INFORM THE BELIEVERS TO FOLLOW THE QURAN

    006.155
    “And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it (Arabic: fa-ittabi’uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy”

    THE PROPHET WAS ORDERED TO STRICTLY FOLLOW INSPIRATION

    010.109
    “And (O Muhammad) FOLLOW THAT WHICH IS INSPIRED IN YOU, and forbear until God give judgment. And He is the Best of Judge”

    010.015
    “But when Our clear verses (Arabic: Ayatina) are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: “Bring us a reading other than this, or change this,” SAY: “IT IS NOT FOR ME, OF MY OWN ACCORD, TO CHANGE IT: I FOLLOW NAUGHT BUT WHAT IS REVEALED UNTO ME: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).”

    033.002
    “AND FOLLOW THAT WHICH IS INSPIRED IN YOU FROM THY LORD. Lo! God is Aware of what ye do.

    046.009
    “Say: “I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I FOLLOW BUT THAT WHICH IS REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION; I am but a Warner open and clear.”

    006.106
    “FOLLOW THAT WHICH IS INSPIRED IN YOU from thy Lord; there is no God save Him; and turn away from the idolaters”

    006.050
    Say: “I tell you not that with me are the treasures of God, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I BUT FOLLOW WHAT IS REVEALED TO ME.” Say: “can the blind be held equal to the seeing?” Will ye then consider not?

    THE QURAN WAS THE ONLY INSPIRATION THAT PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) RECEIVED FOR PURPOSES OF GUIDANCE AND TO WARN MANKIND

    For mankind’s timeless Divine guidance, the Quran remained the only revelation that was received by the Prophet for this appointed mission.

    006:019

    “Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” Say: “God is witness between me and you; This Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?” Say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness!” Say: “But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him”

    041:001-3

    “Ha Mim: A Revelation from (God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful. A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Quran in Arabic, for people who understand”

    027:91-92

    “I am commanded only that I should serve the Sustainer of this city, Who has made it sacred, and His are all things; and I am commanded that I should be of those who submit; And that I should recite the Quran. Therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright for his own soul, and whoever goes ‘ astray, then say: I am only one of the warners.”

    007.203-4

    “And when you bring not a verse for them they say: Why have you not chosen it? Say: I follow only that which is inspired in me from my Lord. This (Quran) is insight from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy for a people that believe. When the Quran is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy”

    A BELIEVER CANNOT INTRODUCE ANY OTHER SECONDARY SOURCE AS JUDGEMENT ALONG WITH THE QURAN

    068.036-38

    “What is the matter with you? How judge ye? Or have ye a book through which ye learn That ye shall have, through it whatever ye choose?”

    004:105

    “Surely, We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that you might judge between men, as guided by God: so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust”

    005:043

    “But why do they come to thee for decision (People of the Book), when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith”

    005.048
    “To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between the hands (bayna yadayhi) and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires…”

    PROPHET WAS TOLD ONLY TO WARN WITH THE QURAN

    050:045

    “We know best what they say; and you are not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Quran such as fear My Warning!”

    IF THE PROPHET WERE TO INTRODUCE A SAYING IN GOD’S NAME OR FOLLOW ANYTHING BUT THE QURAN, HE WOULD BE PUNISHED

    069:044 And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name

    069:045 We should certainly seize him by his right hand

    069:046 And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart

    069:047 Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath)

    017:073-75
    “And their purpose was to tempt thee away from that which We had revealed unto thee, to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (their) friend!” And had We not given thee strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!”

    Respond to the above brother… I humbly await your response to the verses// since you seemingly understand better Arabic!!!

    You said :

    1- It’s the Islamic Fikh (science of Ahkam) not me. And it was put only after Quran, Sunnah, Qiyas and Scholars Ijtihad are exhausted one after another…”

    ” Please remember that it was you who called for interpreting Quran according to our own intellect/best judgement and throw Sunnah and scholars/experts opinions into the garbage.”

    My response..
    Self created partners of ALLAH as usual.. its a shame.

    AND PLEASE No where have i said throw things into garbage.. as a matter of fact i took steps to tell you their IMPORTANCE>. Rather I REJECT them as a source of ISLAMIC LAW!! I hope you get it this time aroun=d!!

    You said :

    Though it’s a good point but it doesn’t apply on Sunnah.
    For example, Jews made “interest – Reba” acceptable in a direct conflict with their divine book.
    Christians changed their Aqeedah about God to Trinity, again, in a direct conflict with their divine book.
    Where does Sunnah change the concepts of Aqeedah?
    Where does Sunnah change the Sharia Laws of Quran?

    My response..

    After the death of the prophet Muhammad, a diabolic event happened. In direct contradiction to the teachings of the Quran, male clerics dedicated the religion not to God alone(just like after the death of jesus), but to a “holy” corporation consisting of:
    • God +
    • Muhammad +
    • Muhammad’s companions +
    • The companions of Muhammad’s companions +
    • Early sect leaders +
    • Late sect leaders +
    • Early scholars of a particular sect +
    • Late scholars of a particular sect, and so on..

    SOME ISSUES THAT HAVE SHAPED THE SECTRAIN WORLD ~~~ SIDE BY SIDE WITH TEAHINGS OF THE ISLAM

    (Sectarian teachings)
    Killing apostates, that is, those who leave Islam (read Sunni or Shiite), is commanded. Also anyone who verbally attacks or insults the prophet should be killed.Muhammad sent a platoon at night to kill a woman poet who criticized or insulted him. ~~ Insulting the prophet or drawing him these days is punishable byu death!! Sunnis or shias GO mad when anyone criticizes the prophet. several times God has been insulted in movies and misrepresented IN SEVERAL MOVIES.. sunnis DONT REALLY care.. But let there be a movie of ONLY one drawing of the CREATED ~~ They burn, kill, bomb etc??

    (Islamic Teachings)
    Muhammad was not a tyrant. Islam promotes freedom of opinion, religion and expression. Muslims cannot use violence against even those who insult God (2:256; 4:140; 6:68; 10:99; 18:29; 88:21,22). There were stories of people who abused him and even stoned hium whilst he spoke… The Quran says he cannot not use vilonece on those who even MOCK ALLAHS signs.. He should leave their presence and return when they change the topic.

    (Sectarian teachings)
    Those who do not observe daily prayers should be beaten in public (forced faith is NOT faith)

    (Islamic Teachings)
    The Quran mentions daily contact prayers about 70 times, and nowhere has it instructed us to beat or harass those who do not observe them. Contact prayers are to be observed for the one andonly God (20:14). This rule is an assault on dignity, which God has bestowed on humanity (17:70) and promotes the observance of prayer for fear of social chastisement rather than for God, as they should be (6:162)

    (Sectarian teachings)
    Married adulterers should be stoned to death (al-rajm). (A goat ate the verse of stoning to death ~ Today some scholars would tell you its a verses abrogated and not meant to be part of the Quran or rather its not a verses)

    (Islamic Teachings)
    Stoning-to-death is never recommended in the Quran as a punishment for any crime. It was a Jewish practice which found its way into the practice of the so-called Muslims centuries after the revelation of the Quran, through hadith and sunna. The God who legislated a hundred lashes for married adulterers who accept the jurisdiction of Islam (24:1-10; 4:25) is the same God who made the Quran clear (24:1), who does not have any shortage of words (31:27), who is the best legislator (5:50), who does not forget (19:64), and who has detailed the Quran (11:1; 6:114; 12:111). Ironically, the word rajm is used in the Quran not for stoning but
    for rejecting and excommunicating. This is a common threat used by pagans against monotheists (11:91; 19:46; 36:18; 18:20).

    (Sectraing Teachings)
    There were three Jewish tribes in Medina: Banu Qaynuqa, Banu alNadir and Banu Qurayza. They provoked Muslims and the first two tribes were forcedto leave the city
    with their transportable possessions. However, prophet Muhammad did not forgive Banu Qurayza; their necks were struck and their children were made slaves.Estimates of those killed vary from 400 to 900 (A very good inspiration fro ISIS and BOKO HARAM or Al-Shabai terrorist)

    (Islamic teachings)
    The credibility of the story of Muhammad massacring Bani Qurayza Jews has been the subject of controversy since the time it was published by Ibn Ishaq. Ibn Ishaq who died in 151 A.H., that is 145 years after the event in question, was severely criticized by his peers for relying on highly exaggerated Jewish stories. He was
    also harshly criticized for presenting forged poetry attributed to famous poets. Some of his contemporary scholars, such as Malik,called him “a liar.” However, his work was later copied by others without critical examination. This is an example of hearsay used by dubious reporters for propaganda purposes. Modern scholars found astonishing similarities between Ibn Ishaq and the account of the historian Josephus regarding King Alexander, who ruled in Jerusalem before Herod the Great, hung
    upon crosses 800 Jewish captives, and slaughtered their wives and children before their eyes. Many other similarities in details of the story of Banu Qurayza and the event reported by Josephus are compelling. Besides, the lack of reference or justification in the Quran for such a massacre of great magnitude and the verses instructing principles for Muslims to abide by removes all credibility from this story (35:18: 61:4). The Quran gives utmost importance to human life (5:32) and considers racism and anti-Semitism evil (49:11-13).

    (Sectarian teachings)
    We should emulate prophet Muhammad and his companions and follow the details in sharia books that cover every aspect of one’s life, from praying to sleeping, from cutting one’s fingernails to going to the bathroom. Wearing a turban and growing beards in a particular fashion is a religious practice emulating Muhammad.

    (Islamic teachings)
    This mindset makes a mockery of God’s system. The Quran reports the message and struggle of numerous prophets, messengers and their supporters and nowhere do we see any word or discussion on how to groom one’s hair and beards, how to cut nails, how to sleep, how to go to the bathroom, or any other formalities and trivial personal or cultural choices (5:101; 42:21; 2:67-71). While hadith books are filled with hundreds of contradictory narrations indulging in details of grooming, fashion,
    attire, even the color of clothes, the Quran reminds us not to focus on these trivial issues, but focus on righteous deeds (7:26). Ironically, the Sunnis and Shiites do not even follow their hadith and sunna books consistently. Though hadith books describe Muhammad with long hair, almost all Sunni clerics who consider
    aping Muhammad as a path to eternal salvation cut their hair short like Buddhist monks. This is an anomaly for those who split hair in the name of Muhammad.

    This unecesary hunger for IRRELEVANT DETAILS was ois reflected in the Story of Sally, When he was asked to tell the people to make a sacrifice.. The people kept asking for all these unnecesary details until they were led astray.. You may also say, this is not refering to you.. but jews or christians.

    You said :
    Never find in Sunnah books orders to kill Shia, while Shia books are full with clear direct calls to massacre Sunnah. I can quote many to you.

    My response..

    Offcourse ~~ You wont.. But you will find hadiths like ~~ When anyone leaves the religion, Kill THEM!! And the sunni scholars have ruled that shias are OUTSIDE the FOLD of islam!! and their blood is lawful!! simple!! Thats why the ISIS(Pro wahahbi, pro SUnni).. are very much pleased with killing shias. SHias and sunnis have been killing themsleves!! Probabdly MORE SHIAS have been killed considering the Sunnis are the majority. The trouble makers in this part of the world are the sunnis.. Not the Ahmadiyyas or the shias or the Qadiriyahs!!! Please. dont throw dust into our eyes.

    YOU CLAIM
    “””It’s not a problem if it was correct or wrong””.

    “”Many school girls start making sex from 11 and 12 in the West.Marrying with young girls was a common social tradition in the 7th cen. not only among Arabs but all around communities like Indians, Persian and Romans. ”

    “”
    WOW!!! the hadith that are supposed to guide us to heaven according to you and your scholars.. thats what you can say about them.. No problem uf it is write or wrong!! you are funny!!!!

    And your second point!, It is common DOES NOT MEAN the prophet did it.. SO MANY THINGS were common DOES NOT mean the prophet practiced it. Read the conditions of marriage byu the Quran from the PROPHETS own lips and you will know that THE PROPHET WILL NEVER GO CONTRARY TO THE QURAN. Sex? You think marriage is about sex.. We grow older faster these days than back in those days.. Mental, physical and social growth is what the Quran demands… and please make sure you marry your daugther OFF when she is 11 to a 50 years old man because you are tryin to emulate the prophet.. aBackward thinking!!!

    ALL you can think about is SEX!! CHild marriage was an oppression of women… Read about these medical conditions.. VVF and RVF. The prophet will never GO contrary to the Quran :

    Determining mutual attraction/compatibility [2:221, 2:235, 30:21, 33:52]
    Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith [2:221, 60:10]
    Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) [4:4, 4:24]
    Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract [4:21, 2:232, 2:237, 24:33]
    If male, capable of providing for the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6]
    To have physically matured / post-puberty [4:6, 24:31, 24:58-59]
    To have the marriage contract/oaths witnessed [2:235, 2:237, 2:282, 65:2]

    If the marriage is unsuccessful, one should also be capable of undertaking divorce proceedings, e.g. separation period, arbitration, discussion of settlement etc [2:226-232, 2:241, 4:35, 4:128-130, 33:49, 65:1-6].

    Since hadith have twisted your thinking to reject the clear teachings the prophet thought… I dont think you will accept the Quranic evidence… Follow the links and see some arguement against the 7 or 9 years old …

    http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/ayesha_age_the_myth_of__a_prover.htm

    http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

    Stop defending the lies using fiery tales!!!! These are clearly hadiths promoted by kings and chiefs to marry young girls and a painful one to destroy the lives of young girls ~~ extension of oppression on women.

    On the Subject of miracles of the prophet… Here are the verses i will quote for you.. and you will show me whch verses suggest that the prophet DID any miracles..

    “They say,” why hath not a sign been sent down unto him from his Lord?” SAY, “Verily God is able to send down a sign, but the greater part of them do not understand.” (Al-Inam 6:37)

    “The unbelievers say, “Why hath not a sign been given by his Lord? Nay, but thou art only a Warner; and unto every people there hath been given a guide.” (Al Ra’d 13:8)

    And when thou dost not show unto them a sign, they say, “Why hast thou avoided to bring it?” SAY, “Verily, I follow that only wherewith the Lord hath inspired me.” This (revelation) is a witness from your Lord, a guide and a mercy to the people that believe. (Al Araf 7:204)

    “And nothing hindered Us from sending (thee) with miracles, but that those of old time gave them the lie” (Bani Israel 17:58).

    “They say, “Why hath not a sign been sent down unto him from his Lord?” SAY, “Signs belong unto the Lord: and as for me, I am but a plain preacher.” (Al Ankabut 29:48)

    What? Doth it not suffice them that I have sent down unto thee the Book which is recited unto them?” (Al Ankabut 29:49)

    LET ME DRIVE THIS POINT INTO YOUR SECTARIAN BRAIN!!!

    IT is a matter of common sense to UNDERSTAND and on does NOT need a PHD in theology to understand a simple point, THE IF THE HADITH AND SUNNAH WAS PART OF ISLAM, the prophet could had set up another UNIQUW group of Honest scribes to write down the hadith and sunnah : like it was done with the Quran. BUT DID HE??? NO. WHy? Because the only AUTHENTIC HADITH of the PROPHET is the QURAN (69:40-48).

    ALL four caliphs COLLECTED and BURNED all th HAADITHS and told muslims TO burn every one they possesd!!!

    I am happy about THE ANGLE of our discussion.. AT LEAST YOU ADMIT THAT THERE ARE ERRORS in THE BOOKS OF ‘SAHIH’ hadiths!! Me and YOU know that these erros are NOT the ones written UNDER the tittle “weak hadiths”. THEY ARE THE ONES SOME MUSLIMS PRACTICE EVERYDAY!!!

    Salaamualaikum brother.

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    1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Thanks for your response.

      ———————————————————————————

      You said:
      “There are many people (sunnis, shias, sufis) who twist Quranic meanings to justify associating partners (Muhammed + Bukhari) with Allah..”

      My reply:

      Sunnis do not associate Muhammad, Bukhari, etc. with Allah. Sunni’s don’t worship any but Allah. Your expression was harsh to some extent and unrealistic.

      In the other hand, Shia do associate others with Allah. They practice the “daylight clear” shirk. They ask dead people (like Ali and his descendants) help and support! The very definition of the term “partners association” with Allah. Some of their “many” branches even claim Ali will be responsible of putting people to Paradise or Hell in the judgment day! Other Shia branches “called Alawi’s” have gone as far as claiming “Ali” being Allah! … Aoutho Billah! … They claim Allah incarnated into Ali and was freed once Ali got assassinated! … They appraise Ali killer because he freed God from the worldly body! …

      Sofi’s are Muslims but in some way they are astray from Muhammad’s path as they have invented certain ways of worshiping Allah (such special songs and dances) that were not practiced during the life of the Prophet nor stated in the Quran. ie. Committing Bid’aa.

      SUNNAH is no near to such misconceptions.

      ——————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “I still listen to them all(sunnis, shias, sufis, za’idis) and follow the best speech.”

      My reply:
      Good to hear that. Indeed, I pray for Allah to guide you not only to the best speech to make you follow it. Some people know the righteousness but don’t practice it.

      ———————————————————————————

      You said:
      “THE QURAN SAID THE MESSAGE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME”

      My reply:
      I do agree but I still find you mixed up between Aqeeda (Creed) and Ibada (worship).
      All prophets came with the same Aqeeda since Adam (not Abraham by the way). All called for “La Ilaha Illa Allah” … No God but Allah.

      However, when it comes to Ibada (worship) and Laws, it directly connects to societies and their daily affairs. Therefore Allah upgraded this part of His message to humanity to match the evolution of societies. That’s why tools of WORSHIP and LAWS had got evolved from the days of Adem all the way to Muhammad who came with the latest upgrade of worship and laws of which Allah called the last and final set.

      I wonder if you know that to be called a “believer” on the days of Noah, you had to believe on Allah being the God and get married, ie. refrain from zena (extra-marital sex), no more! … No prayer, no fasting, no Zakat, no more worship was needed! …
      (we can dig deeper in Noah time in a different thread if you like).

      What I want to say here is that, all prophets did indeed come with the same Aqeeda but different tools of Worship and Laws … However, Prophets categorize into two missions:

      1- Preaching the same Aqeeda and same Laws, called “Nabi”.
      2- Preaching the same Aqeeda and upgraded set of laws, called “Rasool”.

      Adem, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad … categorize under “Rasool”.
      Others like Dawood, Solomon, Elijah, Saleh, Hood, etc. … categorizes under “Nabi”

      Every Nabi preaches the same aqeeda and laws of the previous Rasool.
      Every Rasool preaches the same aqeeda of the previous Rasool but supersedes his worships and laws …

      As followers of the last Rasool, Prophet Muhammad, we still believe on other Prophets Aqeeda (which is Islam) but follow the latest set of worships and laws given to us by Muhammad.
      It’s even a sin to continue practicing their worships and Laws as we were ordered to apply Muhammad’s set and stop any other previous law, simply, because it got outdated with a divine order.

      Just like when Mr. Bill Gates outdated Windows95 and asked his “followers” to adopt Windows10 for a better, more efficient “computer” life.

      —————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “MAN MADE METHODS FOR GODS RELIGION!!! What a shame!!! ou think God will leave what HE PROMISED to protect in the hands of MEN, Who have been desribed by the EVERY Quran that They have been historically NOTORIOUS for Corrupting messages!! is this NOT a contradiction in your logic?? Or rather… Your Hadiths takes a prrority than the Quran!!”

      My reply:
      Buddy, your statement was too aggressive, again!
      Corrupting a message means creating a contradicting creed and twisting the laws.
      Sunnah didn’t commit any of these crimes!

      Sunnah functions for:
      1- Asserting the creed brought by Quran and all previous messengers.
      2- Helping interpreting the Quran.
      3- Covering the Laws of other aspects of people’s lives that Quran didn’t.

      So, technically, your allegations against Sunnah is simply, unsupported.

      ——————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “Jamal al-Banna, a younger brother of Hassan al-Banna (founder of the Muslim Brotherhood) has just published a book in which he argues that 653 of the hadiths as written in al-Bukhari and Muslim are incorrect and should not be accepted. The Arabic book is titled The Cleansing of Bukhari and Muslim from useless Hadiths (2008)”

      My reply:
      I thought you were talking about 600 hadith narrators. However, according to your current response it appears to 600 Hadiths not narrators. And I say, again and again, I don’t have a problem for extra filtering the Bukhari and if Jamal Al-Banna (whom I respect) was true proving the errorness of such Hadiths, I’ll be happy to remove them from Bukhari. However, this doesn’t mean that Jamal Banna brought Sunnah down to its knees. Jamal Banna is a Sunny Muslim. I wish you believe on what he does, at least.

      —————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “The Quran remains the guide for every civilization!! The prophet kept beards BECAUSE HE WAS ARAB!! But now the hadith SANCTIFIED THE BEARDS and the TURBAN as HOLY acts!! ~ That is the prolem!!”

      My reply:
      That’s wrong! … Beard and Turban were not limited to Arabs. All earth’s historical nations did put beards. Many historical Roman, Greek, Indian or Chinese figures in Museums prove that beards were not an Arab patented trade mark.

      Turbans were also vastly used in the 7th cen Arabian Peninsula, Persia, Minor Asia (Turkey today), Mongolia and India. Again, Turban was an Arab patented trade mark.

      Sunnah says the Prophet had ordered his followers to lengthen their beards and trim their mustaches. Muslims love to follow the call of their prophet. What’s wrong with this? … However, following this isn’t obligatory, beard is still optional. It’s not a sin to shave!

      Sanctity of beards, however, isn’t an Islamic term. No where in Quran or Sunnah beard was called to be sanctified. You must be mixed up with other nations who always looked to beards being indication of “religiousness and wisdom” but not Muslims. Muslims do it because it’s the “fashion” of the Prophet. And if you don’t want it, Bukhari doesn’t obligate you to do so.

      ——————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “UNLESS you think the guidance of the Quran is NOT ENOUGH… because this is what you have been claiming INDIRECTLY since. INSISTING we NEED OTHER sources of Guidance and the Quran is NOT enough!!”

      My reply:
      Buddy, I like your enthusiasm towards Quran, but you still suffer from a “romantic” un-realistic view. I’m not saying that Quran is less than a perfect book. But what I want to high light here is that it came for a certain mission and scope. Let me explain further:

      Quran is 100% enough to understand Aqeeda (Creed), Hodood (capital punishments), basics of Worships (ie. Prayer, Zakat, Hajj, Jihad, etc.), basics of Laws (ie. Inheritance, Zehar (naming wife as mom), etc.).

      However, Quran still needs Sunnah for further interpretation. Take for example the famous verse 4:34 “As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, BEAT THEM but if they return to obedience …..”

      Now! If you are a Quranist, a Muslim would think twice before giving you his daughter/sister for marriage! … You’ll beat her badly! … You’re ordered to do it in your holy book, isn’t it? … I’m sure you’re in trouble with this. Does beating our wives resemble a good conduct? … Does Allah order humanity to act such aggressively towards their wives? …

      If you resort to Quran only, Verse 4:34 would become troubling indeed. But when we know that Sunnah had further explained 4:34 and carved borders and boundaries for the term “BEAT THE WIFE” … The bigger picture will appear and real message of God reveals.

      Sunnah had ordered not to beat women with NO more than a “Siwak” – the little tooth brush extracted from Arak Tree roots – according to the explanation of the Prophet.

      The prophet said, “beating shall not cause any pain nor leave any mark but a mental expression towards the wife” (Narrated by Termithi, Hadeeth no. 1163)

      Ibn Abbas “Wife beating is by using the MISWAK or equivalent” (Narrated by Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari, vol. 5, page 97), Where the “MISWAK” is a thin tree root, 10cm long, used as a toothbrush!

      Here Sunnah further explains what WIFE BEATING may look like, and without this further interpretation to the verse 4:34 matters may escalate towards dangerous levels against women shall the Quranic order “beat them” remains unexplained! I arguably confirm that a Quranist might beat the hell out his wife being not constrained to the Sunnah on that regards.

      I wish this had explained to you why Quran, in some laws, is not enough. That’s why Allah employed the Prophet to cover the rest through his non-Quranic speeches/Hadith.

      ——————————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “Muhammed CAN MAKE mistakes.. BUT THE messenger CANNOT. Like when he feared the people instead of fearing GOD. Where he frowned from the blind man etc. God told us the porphet is a fallible human being.”

      My reply:
      Astagfiru Allah!!! Muhammad can’t make mistakes neither from personal nor messenger points of views.
      Verse 53:2 “Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,”
      Verse 68:4 “And indeed, you are [Muhammad] of a great moral character.”

      If this is what Quran says about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), so how dare you “Quranist” accuse the prophet of making errors and mistakes?! …

      Let me explain what’s mixed up in your head. When the prophet acted towards the Blind, and at a moment of time he feared some others, etc. He, in fact, had chosen from two possible correct choices. However Allah wanted him to choose the “better” choice.

      So, we’re not comparing between right and error, but good and better.

      Such “schizophrenia” between the person and messenger sides of the prophet exists only in the heads of Quranists!

      A channel chosen by Allah to convey His vital message to humanity must be flawless. It’s not the message only but the pipe (The Prophet) must be perfect in order to quality assure the final product.

      ———————————————————————

      You said:
      “ the prophet WOULD NEVER TEACH WHAT is NOT CONTAINED in the Quran. He would have been killed by Allah if he did.”

      My reply:
      Cool! … Now think about it from a different angle. This verse proves that everything reached us from the prophet was revealed from Allah. The verse just proves the Prophet never invented something from his own … Now, if you think the lips of the prophet didn’t speak anything beyond reciting Quran all of his life, then that’s absurd.

      Such DIRECT THREAT from Allah to the prophet to get killed if he invents anything is ANOTHER QURANIC PROOF THAT SUNNAH IS DIVINE TOO. And before you jump to claiming the verse meant Quran only, I’ll till you, that WRONG. Nothing in the verse points to a limited scope. Or else Allah should’ve positively said it to be the Quran, rather the verse scope kept open to ANY THING THE PROPHET MIGHT SAY.

      Now, if Bukhari missed up by narrating some wrong hadiths that doesn’t mean authentic Sunnah isn’t divine! The problem isn’t in the diamonds but the way they were collected.

      I asked you a question of which YOU KEPT AVOIDING, … I neither forgot nor will, until you show the courage to answer it:
      If theoretically, there are some text that is proven to be the speech of the Prophet, orders TO-DO’s and NOT-TO-DO’s, are you going to obey? …

      Your silence towards this question explains your position towards the Prophet’s the non-Quranic speeches. YOU DON’T BELIEVE THEY ARE DIVINE, though you claim the belief on Quran that says Allah threatens the prophet to be killed if he lies about anything.

      ——————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “When Marry recieved WAHI, did it become law??”

      My reply:
      What kind of an example you’re putting!
      Does the WAHI Marry received (you will miraculously conceive a baby without a man) look like a Law?! … I started questioning either your definition of the term “Law” or you common sense!

      ———————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “and several other people who were not prophets, but God spoke to them… SHOULD THEY BECOME LAWS practiced through ages??? Please your arguement is VERY LAME!!!”

      My reply:
      There could be a non-Prophet person who receives WHAI from Allah. You, yourself, can receive WHAI from Allah when you cry out for guidance. But unfortunately, Allah didn’t order us to follow the WHAI sent to you but to Muhammad.

      You receiving some WHAI from Allah doesn’t make such WHAI neither a reference to anyone but you nor a permanent Law for anybody including you. We are ordered to follow the WHAI and Laws that descended to a specific person called MUHAMMAD, my friend.

      ————————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “Thats why both SECT have INVENTED Sababu Nuzool “conditions of revelation” ~ which helps you people to shrink the application of the verse.”

      My reply:
      Oops! … I still remember that I expressed to you earlier that the Sunni methodology of interpreting the Quran is by considering the GENERAL MEANING OF THE WORD NOT THE SPECIFIC REASON … and yet you objected this.

      Now you object what you’ve previously objected … Cool!

      Buddy, if you’ll keep putting yourself in the opposite corner just for the sake of opposing me, then there is no point in continuing this debate as there will be no winner or loser. You’re setting me as your reference. If I’m in the East you’ll put yourself in the West and vice versa. Unfortunately this reveals how fluid your position is and how empty is your bag of principles and references. We can’t keep going this way. In psychological term, you reflect a “negativistic personality”, my friend.

      —————————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “PCIK THEM UP AND RESPOND TO THEM ONE BY ONE :::”

      My reply:
      Buddy, these verses turn around the same subject … (you agree with this as you brought all of them to prove the same point) … so explaining one of them will serve for others … I’ll pick the first one … verse 45:6

      You explained verse 45:6 to be “THE PROPHET WAS INSTRUCTED TO INFORM THE BELIEVERS TO FOLLOW THE QURAN” … I’ll not comment … I’ll let Quran English Translators respond to you … with their plane translations … no additional words from me … read the translations carefully one by one please.

      Sahih International
      These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?

      Muhsin Khan
      These are the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allah, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. Then in which speech after Allah and His Ayat will they believe?

      Pickthall
      These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?

      Yusuf Ali
      Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?

      Shakir
      These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?

      Dr. Ghali
      Those are the signs of Allah that We recite to you with the Truth. In which discourse then, after Allah and His signs, (will) they believe?

      What Allah had ordered us to follow in this verse was according to the English Translators was:
      Verses of Allah … according to Sahih International
      Proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations … according to Muhsin Khan
      Portents of Allah … according to Pickthall
      Signs of Allah … according to Yusuf Ali and Dr. Ghali
      Communications of Allah … according to Shakir

      Did you get it? … Verses, Proofs, Evidences, Lessons, Revelations, Portents and Signs … all are explanations of what Allah had ordered us to follow. Now what are you disparately trying to do is to squeeze all these vocabulary into one thing! … “They only mean Quran”!!! …

      Based on previous translations, I wonder on which bases you excluded Muhammad’s non-Quranic speeches from being PORTENTS OF ALLAH, SIGNS OF ALLAH, LESSONS OF ALLAH OR REVELATIONS OF ALLAH … I can’t understand the needle hole you’re looking into the subject!

      CONCLUSION: Limiting 45:6 to “Quran” only is WRONG! … In fact 45:6 proves my argument. Prophet’s non-Quranic speeches are still a part of what Allah wants us to believe … especially when we also read “Obey Allah and Obey the Prophet” … But what bill this can ring inside an odd interpreter like you, buddy.

      ————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “A BELIEVER CANNOT INTRODUCE ANY OTHER SECONDARY SOURCE AS JUDGEMENT ALONG WITH THE QURAN”

      My reply:
      Do you think this statement proves your point?! … Not at all … instead it proves mine and further highlights the importance of SUNNAH.

      HOW COME?

      To extract Judgements from the Quran, a man would need to interpret the Quran. I mean that we actually, extract Judgements from the interpretations of the Quran not Quran itself. And because interpretation may vary from a person to another according to their level of education, mother language, professionalism in Arabic, etc. different Judgements can be extracted from the same verse!

      So how God will protect the religion? … You answer it … It’s by unifying the interpretation. This meant the Prophet Muhammad has to convey us the Quran along with its interpretation (Sunnah). Of which served as a unified source for judgments extraction to followers.

      By offering a reference interpretation, Sunnah had played a crucial rule in preserving Allah’s message on earth.

      That’s why you find today 90% as Sunny Muslims and all other sects share the remaining 10% … Is it a pure luck?!

      ——————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “(Sectarian teachings) … Killing apostates”

      My reply:
      I would have to say, Muslims misunderstand Apostasy Laws.
      When Abu Bakr fought apostates “murtaddeen” … he did it for two objectives:

      1- To protect the Islamic State: Apostate tribes marched towards Madinah, the capital city of Islam in attempt to destroy Muslims once and for all. They closed into the city until they were few kilometers away. They surrounded all perimeter. WAR OBJECTIVE: SELF-DEFENSE.

      2- To gain back the Islamic State rights: Apostates stopped paying charity “Zakat” which used to be collected by the state during the life of the Prophet. In today’s terminology, they stopped paying the TAXES payable to the state. Abu Bakr himself had explained it during his famous speech and said “I’ll fight them even it (the Zakat) was as little as a Camel Rope, if they used to pay it during the Prophet days then they will need to continue paying it” … WAR OBJECTIVE: SUBMIT TO THE STATE AND LAW.

      No what so ever evidence suggests that Apostate War was launched because some Arab Tribes decided to exit Islam!

      I’ll admit there is a big misconception here. However, this is not a justification to punish Sunnah.
      Quran always mentioned that Apostates will be punished by Allah in the judgment day, didn’t give any Law justifying a worldly punishment.

      Quran even mentioned that hypocrites of Madinah (Munafeqeen) did embrace Islam during the day then apostate in the night! … Did the Prophet kill them? … Not at all.

      Nevertheless, there are many other Muslims throughout history who had it right! … Take for example, the two Lebanese Muslim tribes who decided to apostate to Christianity during the Ottoman Empire (1700’s) … No one harmed them for declaring the embrace of Christianity. Lebanon used to be a part of the Ottoman Empire, located at the heart of Sunni Arab Islamic World.

      The two tribes offered paying the Jeziyah and the state accepted it. The two tribes still exist today in Lebanon … More details can be given to you about these tribes on request.

      This proves that not all Muslims reacted the same … It again, goes back to interpretation skills.

      Let’s put a common ground between me and you at this point …

      HOWEVER; Islam still, as an act of self-defense, fights those who fight it. In other words, if you decide to apostate out of Islam and live ever happy and quiet, Islam doesn’t punish you. However, the moment you apostate then turn back your guns against it, then you are an enemy and no one throws flowers on his enemies.

      Killing people for “apostate then attacking Islam” was indeed practiced by the Prophet (PBUH). Poet women were a good example. Poems being a crucial media of communications these days it worked as a hostile weapon against Islam. Same thing with the other 7 persons that were ordered to be killed even they hang on Ka’baa curtains asking for mercy. Even though, still one of them managed to apologize to the prophet and granted his forgiveness.

      What I want to say here is … Killing apostate for being apostates isn’t an Islamic teaching at all … but killing an apostate who turned himself enemy to Islam, have been practiced during the Prophet time … and seems logical from the scope of “self-defense”.

      ISLAM WAS AND WILL REMAIN THE BEACON OF FREEDOM OF RELIGIONS AND TOLLERANCE, ASK ANCIENCT CHURCHES AND SYNOGAGUES RESTING IN MUSLIM LANDS.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “Insulting the prophet or drawing him these days is punishable byu death!!”

      My reply:
      I don’t agree with such killings. I even think such “draw Muhammad day” makes the Prophet more famous and will encourage many of non-Muslims to read his true biography of which makes it possible for the non-Muslim to embrace Islam. And it happened a lot.

      However, I still believe “drawing Muhammad” isn’t an innocent practice of Freedom of Speech, rather I see it an attempt to insult Muslims especially no single “drawing of Muhammad” expresses positive image but bombs, terrorism and blood thirsty character. If you think deeper on the issue, you’ll read the hidden words behind “draw Muhammad” campaigns … It’s a systemized demonizing process against Muslims. It tends to portray to the audience that, “follower of such Prophet makes them terrorists to”! It gains nothing but promote Islamophobia in the world and build pre-conceived negative images about Muslims.

      This being said, I don’t exclude the possibility of some angry Muslims attack them or consider them as enemies and act accordingly!

      In the other hand, technical criticism of Muhammad was always welcomed by the vast majority of Muslims and Scholars. Intellectual debates between Muslims and Non-Muslims took place throughout history until today. This proves the open minded Islamic Sunni mindset that accepts criticism of nearly anything about Islam.

      —————————————————————————

      You said:
      “Those who do not observe daily prayers should be beaten in public (forced faith is NOT faith)”

      My reply:
      Where did you see this practiced?
      Even in Saudi Arabia, people are not punished for “not praying” but for “not closing” their shops during prayers. I find it a good act that helps Muslims free their time to perform prayers. It gives a ground for more Muslims to go to the mosque. Prevents bosses from forcing their employees to stay at work during prayers. But never seen people get hit for not going to prayers … even in Mecca!

      —————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “Married adulterers should be stoned to death (al-rajm)”

      My reply:
      Sorry dude. I can’t help with this. Sunnah proves that it was practiced during the life of the prophet and every Sunni Muslim accepts this Law. Few Quranists, Westerners and Atheists don’t like. No problem. We don’t like killing someone in Electric Chair as well.

      A woman came to the Prophet and confessed she committed adultery. The prophet directed his face away as if he didn’t listen to what she has just said … She insisted to be punished … So he ordered her to wait until she delivers the baby (who was conceived from adultery) then come back. After 9 months she came back, the Prophet again ordered her to go back and breast feed the baby for the official duration mentioned in Quran (two years) … After two years she came back asking for punishment. That time the Prophet applied the stoning capital punishment. When some Sahaba called her bad names during stoning, the prophet asserted that “She had an amount of faith that if distributed among all Muslims in Madinah, it was enough to send them all to paradise”

      Furthermore, “stoning for adultery” can also be traced in Old Testament.
      In Christianity, the famous statement of Jesus “who’s without sins shall stone her” was proven being injected into the Bible since previous scriptures didn’t mention this.

      However, I wonder if you noticed that it’s practically impossible to prove the guilt as 4 witnesses must witness the sexual intercourse, which renders stoning for adultery in Islam looks like more of a warning more than a joy for stoning people.

      —————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “However, prophet Muhammad did not forgive Banu Qurayza; their necks were struck and their children were made slaves.Estimates of those killed vary from 400 to 900 (A very good inspiration fro ISIS and BOKO HARAM or Al-Shabai terrorist)”

      My reply:
      The Jews of Banu Qurayza betrayed the peace treaty which they signed with the Prophet and helped the pagans of Mecca on their raid on Muslims. So after the Prophet defeated the pagans he turned back to Banu Qurayza.

      The Prophet was fair enough that he treated them according to their own LAW in Torah:

      Numbers 31:
      7 So they made war against Midian, just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed every male.
      ……
      9 The sons of Israel captured the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods they plundered.
      10 Then they burned all their cities where they lived and all their camps with fire.

      It looks brutal but FAIR relative to his enemy standards.

      However, when it comes to whom better inspires ISIS and BOKO HARAM or Al-Shabai terrorists, I think it’s more of the western terrorists like but not limited to David Stephenson, Ted Kaczynski, William Simmons, James McNamara, John McNamara, Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Eric Rudolph, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Chevy Kehoe, Samuel Bowers, Jr., Todd Van Biber, Hiram Evans, Thomas Blanton, Herman Cash, Bobby Frank Cherry, Edgar Ray Killen, or even that cold blooded killer Anders Behring Breivik who massacred 90 innocent lives in Norway few years ago! … the list is in-exhaustive …

      I find colonial Britain in Tasmania (Australia) had inspired ISIS way better than Prophet Muhammad.
      For decades historians have argued that British colonial settlers in Tasmania came close to carrying out the world’s first successful genocide!
      There was every attempt by the British to eliminate Tasmanian Aborigines for the sole purpose of getting access to their land. Their own records illustrate that there were mass atrocities. Aborigines were openly hunted down.
      The facts show that by the end of the killing, there were only 15 or 20 Aborigines left, from whom today’s Aborigines are all descended … That’s a good raw model for ISIS, my friend.

      I also find what took place against Native Americans under the Freedom of the US Constitution inspired ISIS way better than Prophet Muhammad … or even the massacres carried by the American troops on the island of Luzon, Philippines alone that reached 800,000 man, woman and child during the “Pacification” operation between 1902–1913.

      In the other hand, objective Jewish historians have already admitted the crucial rule Muslim Empires played for protecting Jews and preventing them from getting extinct under the heavy hands of the Church …

      “Judaism probably welcomed the conquest of Spain by the Muslims in 711. With the Muslim conquest began a Golden Age of freedom and tolerance for Jews. They freely entered the fields of government, science, medicine, and literature.” … Lewis Hopfe, ‘Religions of the World’, New Jersey: Prentice Hall, 1998.

      ——————————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “We should emulate prophet Muhammad and his companions and follow the details in sharia books that cover every aspect of one’s life, from praying to sleeping, from cutting one’s fingernails to going to the bathroom. Wearing a turban and growing beards in a particular fashion is a religious practice emulating Muhammad”

      My reply:
      Yeah sure, I would recommend this to my son. It’s way better to emulate the Prophet than emulating Michael Jackson!
      I can’t think of a Muslim condemns emulation of the Prophet!

      ————————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “This unecesary hunger for IRRELEVANT DETAILS was ois reflected in the Story of Sally, When he was asked to tell the people to make a sacrifice.. The people kept asking for all these unnecesary details until they were led astray.. You may also say, this is not refering to you.. but jews or christians.”

      My reply:
      I would like to re-phrase your statement:
      It’s not obligatory but still important for those who wish to mimic their beloved Prophet. Again, it’s way better than mimicking Justin Bieber. Muslims always loved to mimic the prophet during his life and never objected to that nor blamed those didn’t mimic him. It’s Optional.

      However, I don’t find it a good behavior from a Muslim making fun of those mimicking the prophet. Thanks for giving me a better idea on what a mindset of a Quranist may look like!

      ———————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “When anyone leaves the religion, Kill THEM!! And the sunni scholars have ruled that shias are OUTSIDE the FOLD of islam!! and their blood is lawful!! simple!! Thats why the ISIS(Pro wahahbi, pro SUnni).. are very much pleased with killing shias. SHias and sunnis have been killing themsleves!! Probabdly MORE SHIAS have been killed considering the Sunnis are the majority. The trouble makers in this part of the world are the sunnis.. Not the Ahmadiyyas or the shias or the Qadiriyahs!!! Please. dont throw dust into our eyes.”

      My reply:
      I guess you are blind enough to notice the long history of peace Shia lived in the Sunny Ottoman Empire. If your claim was true, you wouldn’t find a single Shei exists in Iraq, or Alawi in Syria today.

      One more debunk to your lies against Sunna … is Saudi Arabia being a Wahabi Sunni country and yet Shia lives peacefully in the cities of Qatif, Hofuf, Riyadh and Madinah since the establishment of the “Wahabi” monarchy 1930!

      I’m sorry, what you’ve said was merely a lie that found its way to your brain.

      ————————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “Determining mutual attraction/compatibility [2:221, 2:235, 30:21, 33:52]”

      My reply:
      Non of the verses you mentioned [2:221, 2:235, 30:21, 33:52] are about what you called attraction/compatibility! … Are you deliberately lying against Quran or just copy/pasting from somewhere?! … Shame on you!

      It would be much better to put the whole verse to the readers, not just numbers and blind banners!

      ———————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith [2:221, 60:10]”

      My reply:
      I guess the Prophet and Aisha were of similar beliefs/faith!
      You proved no point.

      ———————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) [4:4, 4:24]”

      My reply:
      In Islam, this can be also discussed with the father of the pride. Who better takes care of a daughter than a father?!
      You proved no point.

      ————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract [4:21, 2:232, 2:237, 24:33]”

      My reply:
      Nothing contradicts the Prophet and Aisha marriage from those verses point of views.
      You proved no point.

      ————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “If male, capable of providing for the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6]”

      My reply:
      Sure the Prophet did!
      You proved no point.

      —————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “To have physically matured / post-puberty [4:6, 24:31, 24:58-59]”

      My reply:
      You’re throwing claims as if you have copies of Aisha’s ultrasound images that prove her immature!
      Girl can get physically matured by 9 years old and have their menstruation running.
      Again, you proved no point.

      —————————————————————————————————-

      You said:
      “To have the marriage contract/oaths witnessed [2:235, 2:237, 2:282, 65:2]”

      My reply:
      Do you think the Prophet married Aisha in the darkness without witnesses?
      You proved no point.

      —————————————————————————————————
      You said:
      “If the marriage is unsuccessful, one should also be capable of undertaking divorce proceedings, e.g. separation period, arbitration, discussion of settlement etc [2:226-232, 2:241, 4:35, 4:128-130, 33:49, 65:1-6].“

      My reply:
      Sure Aisha was capable of undertaking a divorce if she wanted. That’s an Islamic right granted to women.
      I guess you’re facing a difficulty to predict whether marrying the Greatest Man on Earth makes a woman happy or not!
      You proved no point.
      ——————————————————————————————————–

      You said:
      “On the Subject of miracles of the prophet… Here are the verses i will quote for you.. and you will show me whch verses suggest that the prophet DID any miracles..
      “They say,” why hath not a sign been sent down unto him from his Lord?” SAY, “Verily God is able to send down a sign, but the greater part of them do not understand.” (Al-Inam 6:37)
      “The unbelievers say, “Why hath not a sign been given by his Lord? Nay, but thou art only a Warner; and unto every people there hath been given a guide.” (Al Ra’d 13:8)
      And when thou dost not show unto them a sign, they say, “Why hast thou avoided to bring it?” SAY, “Verily, I follow that only wherewith the Lord hath inspired me.” This (revelation) is a witness from your Lord, a guide and a mercy to the people that believe. (Al Araf 7:204)
      “And nothing hindered Us from sending (thee) with miracles, but that those of old time gave them the lie” (Bani Israel 17:58).
      “They say, “Why hath not a sign been sent down unto him from his Lord?” SAY, “Signs belong unto the Lord: and as for me, I am but a plain preacher.” (Al Ankabut 29:48)
      What? Doth it not suffice them that I have sent down unto thee the Book which is recited unto them?” (Al Ankabut 29:49)”

      My reply:
      1- I wonder if flying in a single night from Mecca to Jerusalem (2000 KM apart) wasn’t a miracle?!
      Verse 17:1 “Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.”

      2- I wonder if sending Army of Angels and Strong Winds to support the Prophet battle against Mushriks during the sieging Madinah (Al-Ahzab battle), wasn’t a miracle?
      Verse 33:9 “O you who have believed, remember the favor of Allah upon you when armies came to [attack] you and We sent upon them a wind and armies [of angels] you did not see. And ever is Allah , of what you do, Seeing.”

      3- Also wondering of Allah sending 3000 Angels then soon raised to 5000 to fight with Muslims against the Mushriks during the battle of Badr, the first battle in Islamic History, wasn’t a miracle?
      Verse 3:125-126
      “[Remember] when you said to the believers, “Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should reinforce you with three thousand angels sent down? (25) … Yes, if you remain patient and conscious of Allah and the enemy come upon you [attacking] in rage, your Lord will reinforce you with five thousand angels having marks [of distinction] (26)”

      The previous was quoted from the very Quran you claim believing with!
      What would you call these three incidents?! … Video games! …
      Some idiots claim that the Prophet trip to Jerusalem was merely a dream, cool! … So how about Ahzab and Bard battles with angels descending from heaven to fight with the Prophet and his followers, were they a dream too?! …

      ————————————————————————————————

      You said:
      “IT is a matter of common sense to UNDERSTAND and on does NOT need a PHD in theology to understand a simple point, THE IF THE HADITH AND SUNNAH WAS PART OF ISLAM, the prophet could had set up another UNIQUW group of Honest scribes to write down the hadith and sunnah : like it was done with the Quran. BUT DID HE??? NO. WHy? Because the only AUTHENTIC HADITH of the PROPHET is the QURAN (69:40-48).”

      My reply:
      Not at all, it’s common sense to do exactly the opposite!
      What took place in realty was the perfect choice in order to preserve both Quran and Sunnah!
      If Sunnah would have been permitted to be written during the Prophet time, we would definitely find many idiots mixing Quran and Sunnah, thinking some Sunnah is Quran and some Quran is Sunna.

      The best divine strategy was to let both, Quran & Sunnah, get written in a totally different time zone. After two decades of perfect preservation of Quran, Allah opened the door to call the Sunnah from memory and get it written down

      Allah knows better than me and you.

      I arguably assert, if Quran and Sunnah were written during the Prophet life, we would have seen today much more number of divergent sects that not only debating about which Sunnah is the correct but, which Quran is the correct, too!

      Allah is the best planner.
      —————————————————————————————

      Bless you n yours,,,

      Like

      Reply
      1. Muslim Avatar
        Muslim

        You said :
        Quran is 100% enough to understand Aqeeda (Creed), Hodood (capital punishments), basics of Worships (ie. Prayer, Zakat, Hajj, Jihad, etc.), basics of Laws (ie. Inheritance, Zehar (naming wife as mom), etc.).

        However, Quran still needs Sunnah for further interpretation. Take for example the famous verse 4:34 “As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, BEAT THEM but if they return to obedience …..”

        My Response:

        You see your CONTRADICTIONS

        Quran is 100% Enough(do you really mean this phrase???) Yet you immediately CONTRADICT yourself in the next statement by SAYING. Quran Needs sunnah for further INTERPRETATIONS (We find entirely NEW laws in the Hadith books beyond interpretations. Lame explanations and stupid insults to the prophet.

        Now.. Here is a LIST of your SO CALLED interpretations to the Quran EVENTHOUGH THE QURAN CLAIMS IT IS FULLY DETAILED, You Still STURBBONLY CLING to Bukahri and muslim as INTERPRETATION of the Quran. What more can i say!!!

        1) Which Hadith Do You Believe Besides The Quran? (45:6)???

        ? “The Prophet never urinated in standing position” (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).
        ? “The prophet urinated in standing position” (Bukhary 4/60,62).
        ? “A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when
        they killed the prophet’s shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert” (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).
        ? “Moses was scared by the angel of death, thus Moses slapped him and blinded one of his eyes”.
        ? “I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people” (Bukhary 97/36). “Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah” (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
        ? “Bad luck is in the woman, the horse, and the home” (Bukhary 76/53). “If a monkey, a black dog or a woman passes in front of a praying person, his prayer is nullified.” (Bukhary 8/102; Hanbel 4/86).
        ? “The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war” (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).
        ? “The earth is carried on a giant bull; when it shakes its head an earthquake occurs” (Ibni Kathir 2/29; 50/1).
        ? “Leaders have to be from the Quraish tribe” (Bukhary 3/129,183; 4/121; 86/31).
        ? “You shall kill all black dogs; because they are devils” (Hanbel 4/85; 5/54).
        ? “God is the time” (Muwatta 56/3).
        ? “To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the prophet His thigh.” (Bukhary 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)
        ? “The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat.” (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).
        ? “A tribe of monkeys arrested an adulterous monkey and stoned it to death, and I helped them” (Bukhary 63/27).
        ? “When the prophet died his armor had been pawned to a Jew for several pounds of barley.” (Bukhari 34/14,33,88; Hanbal 1/ 300; 6/42,160,230).
        ? “The punishment for cutting the fingers of a woman is to pay her: 10 camels for one finger, 20 camels for two fingers, 30 camels for three fingers, and 20 (twenty) camels for four fingers” (Hanbel 2/182; Muvatta 43/11).
        ? “The prophet had been bewitched by a Jew, and for several days he did not know what he was doing” (Bukhari 59/11; 76/47; Hanbel 6/57; 4/367).
        ? “Muhammad possessed sexual power of 30 men” (Bukhary).
        ? “Do not eat and drink with your left hand, because Satan eats and drinks with the left hand” (Hanbel 2/8,33).
        ? “The prophet said:’Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it” (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
        ? “The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks” (Hanbel 2/162).
        ? “Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet” (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).

        You still INSIST in refering to me as a Quranist…. I AM NOT, I AM A MUSLIM..y.. I will only correct you one last time… I will leave you to GOD!!!

        You think Quran advocates wife beating because INTERPRETATIONS of The Quran by your scholars is HEAVILY influenced Persian gossips that are falsy attributed to the prophe!!! Your indoctrinated self THINK they are from the prophet.

        WIFE BEATING IS A FABRICATION OF SELFISH AND MISOGYNIST MEN WHO LIKE TO OPPRESS WOMEN…

        Here is the CONDITION of Dwelling with our spouses …

        030.021
        “And among His Signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may find tranquility in them (Arabic: litaskunu), and He has placed between you love (Arabic: muwaddatan) and mercy (Arabic: wa-rahmatan). Indeed, in that are Signs for those who reflect”

        From the above verse it is clear that the institution of marriage is one of TRANQUILITY, LOVE AND MERCY. Even in the complex matter of divorce, we find clear instructions of arbitration, mutual consultation and kindness with no recourse to harm or injury of any kind. Please note the Arabic word ‘Diraran’ in the following verse and its prohibition. This arguably remains very pertinent to the general theme of this article which seeks to consider a best possible interpretation.

        002:231 (Part)

        “And when you divorce women and they reach their prescribed time, then either retain them in good fellowship or set them free with liberality, and do not retain them for injury / hurt (Arabic: Diraran), so that you exceed the limits…”

        Simply follow this link and read this article on what the meaning of this verse.. Go commands us to LISTEN TO ALL SIDES and FOLLOW the best.. after reading, you can choose to beat your wives of SHUN then or Seperate from them when they misbehave.. THE PROPHET Shunned his wives for a month!!! He never struck them…

        WIFE BEATING IN THE QURAN

        http://quransmessage.com/articles/does%20the%20quran%20sanction%20wife%20beating%20FM3.htm

        YOU SAID MUHAMMED CANNOT MAKE MISTAKE???

        The prophet is HUMAN LIKE US.. HENCE FALLIBLE… In reciveing revelation, HE MAKES NO Mistake because its NOT BY HIS CONTROL..

        Messengers as humans make mistakes. Thus, when believers made a covenant with prophet Muhammad they promised to obey him conditionally, i.e., his righteous orders (60:12). Moreover, God specifically orders Muhammad to consult the believers around him (3:159).

        If nobody can object to the personal decision of the messenger, then consultation is meaningless. However, whenever the final decision is made, it should be followed.

        ** During their lifetimes, messengers are community leaders. In this regard messengers are not different than the believers who are in charge (4:59); both should be obeyed. But, this obedience is not absolute. It is open for consultation and discussion.

        ** The position of messengers are different during their lives; they are interactive teachers and curious students as well. We have the chance to ask them further questions, discuss issues, learn their intention, and even correct their mistakes. On the other hand, they have the opportunity to correct our misunderstandings.

        HOW ABOUT SEVERAL stories of sahabas sometimes CORRECTING the prophets?? They ARE NOT INFALLIBLE… But you idolise Prophet Muhammmed so I blame you no to come up with Infallibility for you IDOL… Shias also claim their IMAMS NEver Make mistake.. SO your guys are notorious for creating infallibility for your prophets.. Your Thinking is deeply rooted in TRADITIONS!!! So you are denied of the Quranic truth!!!

        How about when the Prophet was corrected by Allah when he FEARD the PEOPLE iNSTEAD FEARING God in The matter of marrying the divorced wife of his adopted son? Why is it that HE FROWND and turned and payed attention on to RICH people instead of the blind man.. These are mistakes … Which God advices us NOT to repeat.. SO stop displaying YOUR ignorance brother darwish!!!!

        YOU SAID
        “This verse proves that everything reached us from the prophet was revealed from Allah.”

        MY RESPONSE!
        This hadith proofs that the prophet NEVER lifted the BAN!!

        ” Zayd Ibn Thabit (the Prophet’s closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu’aawiya (more than 30 years after the Prophet’s death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu’aawiya liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said, “The messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his Hadith.” (Reported by Ibn Hanbal) (you cant say the prophet later listed the ban, UNLESS Hanbal WAS LYING)

        Abi Saeed AlKhudry may God be pleased with him reported that the messenger of God may God exalt him & grant him peace had said, ‘Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than Quran shall erase it.’” !!!

        Why Then DO we have The prophet and caliphs WARNING against writting of hadiths and even collecting them and burning them… THE PROPHET WOULD HAVE HAD A SPECIAL SCRIBE TO COMPILE THE HADITH since THEY ALSO FROM ALLH.. The fact that he did NOT and there are HADITH showing that The prophet himself NEVER listed the BAN on wrtting of hadith proofs YOUR POINT USELESS and BASELESS!!!!.

        The prophet WAS MADE TO SWEAR that the ONLY revelation He recieved FOR GUIDANCE from Allah Was the Quran!!! Stop Ignoring this Message brother darwish.. YOu are inherently sturrbon on clinging on your TALES and “LAW-Hal Hadith” instead of UPHOLDING the AHSANAL Hadith!(Quran)

        You said:

        show the courage to answer it:
        If theoretically, there are some text that is proven to be the speech of the Prophet, orders TO-DO’s and NOT-TO-DO’s, are you going to obey? …

        MY RESPONSE

        I have answered you on several Instances YOU JUST TOO BLIND to see it. THE PROPHETS SPEECHS ARE THE Quran!!… The Quran is the way to PROOF THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET. Yet over 80 percent of the practices of Sunni and shia muslims TOday ARE NOT from the Quran! But from hadith books. SO how do they come about their practices and laws which are NOT from the Quran.. Are you SAYING the prophet will preach the Quran to the people and tell them this ABOUT THE QURAN :

        THE QURAN IS COMPLETE:

        FULLY DETAILED

        ITS THE ONLY REVELATION I WAS GIVEN TO WARN YOU WITH

        IT IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND

        IT CONTAINS EVERY EXAMPLE THAT WE NEED…

        And later tell the people to follow RELIGIOUS laws and COMMANDS OUTSIDE THE QURAN???? Do you think At all???? Your LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of SIMPLE CLEAR VERSES BAFFLES ME.

        You are like the people in the Quran who were given a SIMPLE instrution.. KIll A COW.. They started asking for UNNECESARY DETAILS… What Colour, What Size etc until they were led astray!!!. The hadith are filled with very many details that AINT neccesary and somtimes Insulting God and COmmon sense. YET YOU COME HERE TO DEFEND THOSE INSULTS!!!!

        YOu Said::

        GENERAL MEANING OF THE WORD NOT THE SPECIFIC REASON … and yet you objected this.

        Now you object what you’ve previously objected … Cool!

        My Response…
        I really dont know what you mean here… I have NEVER SUPPORTED SABABUl NUZUUL…I have held that its a FALSE INVENTION.. WE SUNNIS.. what an ADMITTANCE OF SECTARIANISM.. eventhough GOD SPECICALLY WARNED THAT WE SHOULD “we are muslims” No wonder your HUNGER to call ME a Quranist is overwhelming… Since you cant even use the term “muslim” for yourself, why would you call someone else that. I AM A MUSLIM!!

        You said :

        What Allah had ordered us to follow in this verse was according to the English Translators was:
        Verses of Allah … according to Sahih International
        Proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations … according to Muhsin Khan
        Portents of Allah … according to Pickthall
        Signs of Allah … according to Yusuf Ali and Dr. Ghali
        Communications of Allah … according to Shakir

        My REPONSE

        DOES “AYAH” not also translate as VERSES… So contend with that! brother.. You accept the rest of the meaning of AYAT and REJECT THE PARTICULAR ONE THAT DEBUNKS YOUR MYTHS CALLED AL-HADITH!! What a shame!!!! If i tranlate it as “VERSES” is it NOT ALSO Correct, does it NOT fit MORE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE VERSE Since ALLAH is talking ABOUT “HADITH”

        IF YOU UNDERSTAND the QURANIC CONTEXT… YOU WILL KNOW that the Quran IS ALSO AN HADITH… Hasanal Hadith(The best Hadith). SO that Verse WAS refereing to WHICH OTHER Hadith would they believe besides the HADITH of the AYAHS of ALLAH!!!! Stop this fallacy of arguements!!!!

        You SAid:
        Do you think this statement proves your point?! … Not at all … instead it proves mine and further highlights the importance of SUNNAH.

        My Response.. Stop Attacking the strawman!!!! RESPOND to the VERSE SPECIFICALLY … Not the Caption!!!!

        You SAid :

        I would have to say, Muslims misunderstand Apostasy Laws.
        When Abu Bakr fought apostates “murtaddeen” … he did it for two objectives:

        My response
        Were you alife during the chastisement of SALMAN RUSHDIE??? well

        GO to the islamic countries and tell them this!!!! Nigeria where i stay, and see the Killings… the recent case of the pregnant doctor in somalia who is to be killed for marrying a christain, additionally too, go and tell WAHABIS or People of afghanistan that THEY MISUNDERSTAND apostacy laws!!! brother darwish.. They will slit your throat…This is the reality.. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO UPHOLD Sahih SITTAH as hundred percent perfect!! THANK GOD FOR YOUR LIFE… ATLEAST YOU REJECT SOME.. YOU ARE USING YOUR BRAIN.

        You said:
        I don’t agree with such killings. I even think such “draw Muhammad day” makes the Prophet more famous and will encourage many of non-Muslims to read his true biography of which makes it possible for the non-Muslim to embrace Islam. And it happened a lot.

        My response.

        Alhamdullilah.. Your admittance just proofs you keep rejecting more and more hadith in the SAHIH collections!! Allah U Akbar. BUT START WRITTING ARTICLE to the Killers of Van Gov.. and those looking forward to killing darnish cartoonist. They take their inspiration from the fact that the prophet ordered SUCH KILLINGS in your HADITH books!!!

        YOU SAID:
        Sorry dude. I can’t help with this. Sunnah proves that it was practiced during the life of the prophet and every Sunni Muslim accepts this Law. Few Quranists, Westerners and Atheists don’t like. No problem. We don’t like killing someone in Electric Chair as well.

        MY REPLY :
        Electric chair killing is for WHEN PEOPLE are Convicted for MURDER or any other crime of taking the life of another!!THIS IS ALSO PUNISHABLE BY DEATH IN THE QURAN were forgiveness is also further prescribed, so why then will murder be forgivable and NOT adultery… Stop mixing UP FACTS to confuse the reader!!!!

        Now on stoning let me remind you of YOUR STATEMENT EALIER.. THE QURAN IS 100% ENOUGH…. sunnah is ONLY interpretation.
        You know ZINA as an ARABIC word captions every act of EXTRA-MARRITAL AFFAIRS…!!! SO DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE PUNISHEMENT OF THE QURAN???

        Or better still, WHAT IS HALF OF STONNING TO DEATH.. because we see the Quran saying “slave women” are given half the punishment for adultery?? Please i need your answer…

        You Said :

        I find colonial Britain in Tasmania (Australia) had inspired ISIS way better than Prophet Muhammad.

        What a shame… your expression “way better than the prophet” is suggesting a comparative alluding to the fact that they get some inspiration from such HEINOUS stories… ITS A PROVEN FACT!!, That NUMBER OF MASACRE is just UNTRU.. You can stil HOLD ONTO THE FACT THAT its TRUE. Your headache!!! The Only reference in the Quran is the statement > “…Some You killed … SOme You took captive…” THis in NO way suggest a masacre of that magnitude!!!

        You said :
        I can’t think of a Muslim condemns emulation of the Prophet!

        My response..

        I dont condemn EMULATION of the prophet!! I condemn the EMULATION of the LIES in the PERSIAN BOOKS OF HADITH(Bukahri, Muslim etc)… You ever WONDERED why ITS PERSIANS WHO COMPILED THE HADITH and THE ARABS WHO HAVE NO LANGUAGE PROBLEM NEVER COMPILED IT? LOL.. thats by the way.. But you thinking is already faulty thinking those are the words of the prophet. Drink Camel Urine.. Dunk Flies into your meal… Get the cure of every disease in HINEY including diabetes.. etc. I have always mentioned… JUST LIKE EVERY HISTORY BOOK… there are LOTS of Speculations and little truth in the Hadith. Contrary to you who think MOST OF WHAT THE HADITH BOOKS ARE is true. THink again MAN!!!!

        AT THIS POINT …. I WILL WANT YOU TO COME CLEAN…. At some point you reject SOME things in the SAHIH books… Yet when it is part of it is criticised or in Whole, YOU CLAIM the persons criticism is to the PROPHET.. COmmon!!!! Open your eyes.

        You said :
        However, I don’t find it a good behavior from a Muslim making fun of those mimicking the prophet. Thanks for giving me a better idea on what a mindset of a Quranist may look like!

        My Response :

        THE HADITH BOOK DO NOT REPRESENT THE PROPHET… Very little traces of what the prophet REALLY SAID and DID are what you find in there and MOSTLY Hearsay.. EG :

        —————————————————————————-
        —————————————————————————-
        The case of prophet solomon (PBUH) sleeping with 99 wives and not saying INSHA ALLAH.

        Q. 38:30
        The verses of the Glorious Qur’an revealed to the Prophet say: To David We gave Solomon (for a son) how excellent in Our service!EVER DID HE TURN TO US (to Us)!

        Having known and preached the above verse, the Prophet could not have narrated a ludicrous story about the Prophet Solomon. The Prophet would not narrate any tale that would throw ridicule in the Path of Allah, after having preached verse number 6 of Sura Luqman.

        Allah’s Command about Ludicrous Hadiths in the Qur’an:

        But there are among men those who purchase idle tales without knowledge (or meaning) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a humiliating Penalty.” Qur’an 31:6

        The Arabic phrase translated by Yusuf Ali as “idle tales” is “lahw al-Hadeethi”. In the Dictionary and Glossary of the Qur’an the word “lahw” is translated as “ludicrous (ridiculous)”. The word “al-Hadeethi” is translated as “the narrative, the story, the tale, the event, the discourse, the saying, etc.” In the literal sense this verse of the Qur’an tells us not to purchase (patronize) “ludicrous (ridiculous) hadiths” and mislead others from
        the Path of Allah, without knowledge of the real facts. Do not purchase (patronize) the “ludicrous (ridiculous) hadiths”… This is Allah’s Command.

        Here is the alternate literal translation of the verse 31: 6:

        But there are among men those who patronize ridiculous hadiths without knowledge (thereby) misleading (men) from the Path of Allah and throwing a butt of mockery (on the Path): for such there will be a humiliating Penalty.” (I know your scholars have translated the above to be refering to MUSIC!!! LOL)

        Ridiculous Hadiths that Undermine the Credibility of the Prophets (Prophet Solomon)

        Narrated by Abu Hurayrah in Sahih Al-Bukhari 19.

        Allah’s Apostle said,

        (The Prophet) Solomon once said, ‘Tonight I will sleep with ninety women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah’s Cause.’ On this, his companion said to him, ‘Say: Allah willing!’ But he did not say Allah willing. Solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad’s soul is, if he (Solomon) had said, ‘Allah willing’ (all his wives would have brought
        forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah’s Cause as cavaliers.

        Discussions on the above Hadith!!!

        Its a know scholarly FACT that many narrations by Abu Huraira are termed ISRAILIYYA, Scholars have dedicated ALOT of time to sifting our this hadith as they influenced the “matn” of the hadith and skew them towards JEWISH scriptures…. This was mostly referenced to a friend of Abu Hurayrah’s named Ka’b al-Ahbar.

        This is recorded by Ibn Taimiyyah in Majmu’ Fatawa. Ka’b al-Ahbar was a former Jew. The story of ‘The Creation’ narrated by Abu Hurayrah, was very similar to the version found in the Book of Genesis. We have also observed that a hadith recorded in Sahih al-Bukhari on the authority of Abu Hurayrah, in connection with the earlier Prophets Moses and Job, “both taking baths naked”, is also a Ma’lul (defective) hadith.

        Such ludicrous tales(LawH-l Hadith) of the earlier Prophets may also have been interpreted from the tales of the Jewish friends of Abu Hurayrah and not from the Prophet. The above preposterous and ludicrous narration in Sahih al-Bukhari, about the sexual exploits of the earlier Prophet Solomon on the authority of Abu Hurayrah, is also a Ma’lul hadith.

        One need not be a professor of mathematics to work out the probabilities of a person having “slept (had sex) with all the ninety women” in one night. Clearly, Abu Hurayrah has been influenced by stories from the Jews, although the hadith bears no resemblance to stories in the Hebrew Scriptures. Abu Hurayrah has repeated this ludicrous hadith six times, and they all are recorded in the Sahih al-Bukhari.

        Surprisingly, Abu Hurayrah has not been consistent in his narrations. He has given five different figures for the number of women Prophet Solomon “slept with in one night”.

        In hadith 9: 561, there were sixty women;
        In hadith 4: 635, seventy women;
        In hadith 8: 634 and 711, ninety women;
        In hadiths 4: 74A and 7: 169, ninety-nine or one hundred women.

        The question is; which of the above narrations is authoritative and true? If you accept only one of the above listed narrations to be authoritative and true, then the rest of the recorded narrations have to be declared as nonauthoritative and untrue. If one acknowledges all the recorded narrations to be authoritative and true then one has to accept not only this most unlikely story, but that the similar events were repeated on at least five different nights and narrated by the Prophet
        19 Hadith no. 8:634 as per CD Alim or sunnah.com (For references) at least five times with five different figures.

        Q. 38:30
        The verses of the Glorious Qur’an revealed to the Prophet say: To David We gave Solomon (for a son) how excellent in Our service! Ever did he turn (to Us)!
        —————————————————————————-
        —————————————————————————-

        So when i criticize these books, Stop saying i am doing it to the prophet. I will not do that, KNOWING He lived the Quran.. so when i see talks from the HADITH that goes against the spirit of the Quran of which MOST of them DO… Why do you have a problem with that??? and accuse me of attacking the prophet?? Do you read my post at all.. Man.. WAKE UP!!!

        You said :
        I’m sorry, what you’ve said was merely a lie that found its way to your brain.

        My response!!!
        Come to Nigeria… Lets go to the north! I made it VERY clear that I AM MOST PRIVY TO THE INFORMATION AROUND my Own Continent and specifically countries i have stayed!! SUNNIS especially Wahabis ARE TROUBLE makers.. THEY ARE AT ODDS with EVERY ONE. Their EVIDENCE are ALWAYS the Hadith books!!. Even in my village, It was their Arrival that divided the Village. Brothers against brothers.. Families against families. What a shame!!!

        YOu said :

        Non of the verses you mentioned [2:221, 2:235, 30:21, 33:52] are about what you called attraction/compatibility!

        My response…

        Maybe English Is your problem.. Because you have prooved TIMES without number, EVENTHOUGH you CLAIM TO BE ARAB.. YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF ARABIC SEEM TO BE STEMING FROM HADITHS WHICH IS AGREED TO BE WEAKER THAN THE QURANIC ARABIC!!!
        NOW HERE IS THE VERSES EXPANDED..

        MUTUAL COMPATIBILITY MEANS.. Both should be compatible RELIGIOUSLY, AND PHYSICALLY :
        Yusuf Ali English Translation

        Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.

        A polytheist IS NOT COMPATIBLE. Thesame Goes for the OTher verses… You where either TOO lazy to open and read those verses or you are JUST PLAYING DUMNB!!!!

        You said :

        I guess the Prophet and Aisha were of similar beliefs/faith!
        You proved no point.

        My Response..

        you rather MISSED the Point as you always do.. Let me help you!!

        What AGE is one OLD enough the Grab the concept of FAITH and RELIGION? 6, 7 8 etc??? I am asking you!!! I was refering to the fact that Grasping the CONCEPT of faith and FEAR OF ALLAH is for a much matured mind.. FOr example.. see below..

        —————————————————————————————-
        —————————————————————————————-
        A SOLEMN COVENANT (MEETHAQAN GALEZAAN)~~ Can a six of seven years take such AN IMPORTANT OATH!!!!!!

        It is clear from the following verse of the Quran, that a ‘Solemn covenant’ is a pre-requisite for marriage and has to be entered into by both parties.

        004:021
        “And how could ye take it when you have gone in to each other, and they have taken from you a solemn covenant (Arabic: Meethaqan Galezaan)?”

        Let us note how the Quran makes use of the term ‘Meethaqan Galezaan’ (Solemn Covenant) elsewhere in the scripture to understand its nature and true significance.

        THE SOLEMN COVENANT GOD TOOK WITH THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL WITH REGARDS THE SABBATH

        004:154
        “And for their covenant we raised over them the mount; and (on another occasion) we said: “Enter the gate with humility”; and (once again) we commanded them: “Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath.” And we took from them a solemn covenant (Arabic: Meethaqan Galezaan)”

        THE SOLEMN COVENANT GOD TOOK WITH ALL HIS PROPHETS

        033:007

        “And remember We took from the prophets their covenant: As (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant (Arabic: Meethaqan Galezaan)”

        Can a child really enter into such an important covenant described by the Quran as a ‘Meethaqan Galezaan’ ?
        —————————————————————————————-
        —————————————————————————————-

        Its ALL proving the POINT THAT AISHA was NEVER 6 or 7 or 8 etc.. She was between 18 – 24. and NEVER 6 or 7. Wake up from your TRADITIONAL SLUMBER BROTHER!@!!

        You said :
        In Islam, this can be also discussed with the father of the pride. Who better takes care of a daughter than a father?!

        My response :
        Which islam? That of your persian gossips ~~ hadith?? ~~ Your self invented islam!! That have created entirely different laws and falsly ejected into the deen..

        FOR THE ISLAM OF MUHAMMED (PBUH) and the QURAN PRIORITY AND IMPORTANCE is ON THE CHILD .. Definetly consultations with parents is neccesary… BUT NOT ENTIRELY IN THE HANDS OF HIS FATHER..

        History is filled with fathers who give off their daugthers to rcih men against their will because of money… some have forced their daugthers to marry because of power, political allaince, wealth and sometimes a promise they made. The girl is made to suffer these consequences. Or are you talking about HONOUR KILLINGS that you people COMMIT in your countries…???? Father and Brother joining hands to kill or maim the female because she has brougt shame to the family… Please Spare us you “fatherly care” story that you want to pull out of your sleevs. WE ARE ALLERGIC TO HEARSAYS!!!!

        You said:
        You’re throwing claims as if you have copies of Aisha’s ultrasound images that prove her immature!

        Your IGNORANCE with biology is what is confusing you!!

        Physical maturity means Mentruation??? I am sure you will line up to MARRY a lady ones you see her breast grown!! Go and read the Quranic references!! There are alot of factors that defines PHYSICAL GROWTH. From OSteology(bone), to other body tissue including the strenght of the body to handle shock! The nect time you are in your car.. read the AIR BAG AGE RESTRICTION and see if it is 6 years or 7 or 8 or nine.. even the car makers KNOW BETTER!!! Wake UP!!!!

        You said :
        Sure Aisha was capable of undertaking a divorce if she wanted. That’s an Islamic right granted to women. You proof no point

        My response :

        Thats because YOU ARE BLIND TO THE POINTS.

        At that age, She understands VERY LITTLE to take oaths and enter contracts!!! Even the age of consent today where people grow FASTER ~~Proven fact is NOT even 15. Its a little later depending on the country!!! You never seize to amze me with your logic!!!

        You said
        Some idiots claim that the Prophet trip to Jerusalem was merely a dream, cool!

        My response:
        Stop the plenty text.. We were talking about withnesses PEOPLE WITHNESSED like they CLAIMED he split the Moon and pouring forth water from inbetween his hands.. Mr DARWISH… Stop confusing the matters.. The prophet was sure supported in sooooo many ways!!! Please brother.. open your eyes.. read the argements properly and stop this resposnes..

        You said :

        The best divine strategy was to let both, Quran & Sunnah, get written in a totally different time zone. After two decades of perfect preservation of Quran, Allah opened the door to call the Sunnah from memory and get it written down

        Allah knows better than me and you.

        I arguably assert, if Quran and Sunnah were written during the Prophet life, we would have seen today much more number of divergent sects that not only debating about which Sunnah is the correct but, which Quran is the correct, too!

        My response..

        YOU MAKE ME LAUGH. Allah is capable of making the QURAN and HADITH(if it were part of the religion) Be recorded in thesame books and NEVER be confused by believers.. He would have fully protected it. So according to you.. THE BEST PLANNER ALLOWED ERRORS AND IMPERFECTIONS in the books of hadith!!

        A DIVINE BEING ~ GIVES ONLY PURE THINGS.. GOD is DIVINE… He is NOT the Author of frivolous hadiths.. You have No point brother… 250years was what it took for the first SAHIH work to be published!!!! Arounf thesame time it took bishobs in the council of nicea to corrupt the message of christ. YOU SEE THE SIMILARITY???

        Salaam.

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    2. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Thanks for the response;

      You said:
      “THE QURAN CLAIMS IT IS FULLY DETAILED”

      My reply:
      If Quran is fully detailed and enough for a Muslim life … then answer me the following questions supported by verse(s) from Quran:

      1- How many prayers during the day, according to Quran?
      2- How many rak’aa in each prayer, according to Quran? (Fajr 2, Duhur 4, Asr 4, Maghrib 3, Isha 4).
      3- Describe the movements during a prayer, according to Quran? (Standing, bowing, etc.) …
      4- What shall we say during each movement within a prayer, according to Quran?
      5- Do we have to recite Surat Al-Fatiha at the beginning of each rak’aa according to Quran?
      6- How much is the Zakat on CASH, a Muslim needs to pay, according to Quran?
      7- How much is the Zakat on cattle (Sheep, Cow and Camel), according to Quran?
      8- How much is the Zakat on precious metals, Silver & Gold?
      9- How many times a Muslim shall turn around Ka’baa, TAWAF, according to Quran?
      10- Is there a special Zakat called “Zakat Al-Fitr” after Ramadan, according to Quran?
      11- How much Zakat Al-Fitr, according to Quran?
      12- Where in Quran that describes the words of Athan (call for prayers)?

      Please don’t avoid any of the questions …

      Thanks ,,,

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  23. yaks4u Avatar
    yaks4u

    Thanks for you response… and your consequent ‘ignorant’ questions that confirms your disbelieve in the CONSTANT repetition by ALLAH in the Quran THAT THE QURAN IS COMPLETE, PERFECT and FULLY details…

    I have awaited this question forever.. Your ignorance would NOT have made sense if you never asked this.. but its okay.. let me put it to you this way.. The facts that you or shias or Qadirryas do something DOES not mean the Quran would COntain it.. by the way which one should the Quran contain??? Sunnis?? or shias??? Well, NONE OF YOUR INVENTED RITUALS IS IN THE QURAN. It is COMPLETE withs its OWN DETAILS …. NOT YOUR DETAILS.

    A curious student should rather be asking “if Allah said the Quran is complete, Then where do all these details of salaat come from?” The right question should be…

    Does the Quran SUPPORT what i practice (Be you a Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya)// because ALL VARY with how they pray.. obviously NO, The quran DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR 24434 robotic prayers.. That was borrowed from the Zoroastian prayer which is EXACTLY 24434 (it is noteworthy that all the compilers of Hadith were persians, some of them had their immediate fathers to be zoroastians (e.g bukhari)) but within the hadith, you can see that the times, forms and style of prayers varied with how the prophet offered it.. style of ablution, recitation etc! How do we know how to pray… The Quran Remains the ONLY FURQAAN!!!

    THE TRUTH IS SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS that the Quran does NOT support the excesses of sects!!! The Quran remains protected and CANNOT edit itself to contain INNOVATIONS.

    The topics you are have raised are broad topics..

    The details are in lengthy articles, their links i will provide shortly… you may choose to read it or not.. What i will do here is to endeavour to touch on some excesses sunnis or shias commit in their prayers nullifying their prayers in the process…

    The prophet told his people about 4 steps of ablution… eventhough the Quran is complete and detailed (fussilat).. hadith followers are NEVER satisfied with the Quran so they added xtra steps and details as though God was not sure of the steps in the Quran.

    During prayers, we were told to REMEMBER GOD ALONE! COMMEMORATE HIM ALONE! and mention NO OTHER NAME during prayers, Only Allahs…

    But shias defy this simple order by calling muhammeds name as well as some family of the prophet, sunnis call the name of the prophet only clearly disobeying the ALLAH.. The manner of the tashahud is an Obviously INNOVATION because it refers to the prophet IN THE PRESENT tense as though he is still alive with us.. Asalamu ALaike, AYU ANOBIYYU!!!

    Aside this, THE RULE of recitation is also flagrantly disobeyed by most of these sects… Recite in a middle tone your SALAAT! No quiet or too loud! But inventors and Innovators of these sect have made the morning, evening anf night salaats read out loud.. and the afternoons silent! they forget OBEDIENCE is an ACT of worship!!! They also made the woman MUTE.. if she is in public!! inventing their own laws for God!!

    They made fasting and prayer UNLAWFUL for a woman! God prohibited SEX and it was worth mentioning in the Quran! BUT YOU THINK A MATTER AS IMPORTANT AS SALAAT PROHIBITION HE WILL EXCLUDE FROM THE QURAN???

    Obviously the innovators borrowed and followed jewish ways of how mentruating women are treated.. unworthy of being in Gods presence!! God dealt with the subject of SALAAT very well in the Quran… what to do when on is traveling, riding, sick etc also talked about so many other laws guiding salaat and you think HE WILL FORGET to mention it in the Quran and left it with MEN to decide???

    Well its the problem with sectarians!!! interestingly, they are mostly the majority of those who say they believe!!

    Haven said this, I will ask you a simple question … WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SALAAT?… maybe if you understand why we pray.. then you may think straight a little bit.

    http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

    http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20salaat%20FM3.htm

    http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm

    On the issue of Zakaat!

    2,5% Yearly is an invention!!! too little to help any system!!

    The Quran makes certain fact known!! It is to be given after EVERY HARVEST SEASON!! Not yearly as the hadith is purporting!!!

    Anfa0 l(sometimes translated as war booty) was supposed to 20% of what is to be given… when you exhaust the sources i will give to you.. You will know that ZAKAAT money is determined by the leaders of each state depending on her conditions and situations!! DEFINITELY NOT THE YEARLY PEA NUTS given by some Muslims today!!

    http://quransmessage.com/articles/zakah%20FM3.htm

    YOUR QUESTION ABOVE STILL GOT ME THINKING

    If God says the Quran is Complete and Detailed.. THEN IT MUST CONTAIN YOUR FALSEHOOD AND INNOVATIONS?? IF NOT YOU MUST FOLLOW MAN MADE LAWS??? What kind of flagrant disobedience is this??? You must follow other laws.. because according to you.. God does NOT really mean what he said in the Quran

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  24. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
    Mohammed Darwish

    Thanks for your response.

    I respond with the following:

    1- I still didn’t understand how can a Quranist pray!
    You kept talking of what “shouldn’t” (done by Sunna/Shia/other sect) but never described what “should”!

    2- Even the website you’ve provided it’s link declares that “Quran lacks prayer description”! This doesn’t sound like Quran is fully detailed. Especially on a matter like “Prayer” that Quran had ordered Muslims to perform in hundreds and hundreds of verses. If you work in my company I would give you a “Work Description” instead of me keep asking you “work … work … work …. !” .
    The Quran asks us “Pray Pray Pray Pray” … but How? … No description! … It doesn’t sound fully detailed.

    3- This forced me to ask you the following Question:
    How do you pray, yourself, as a Muslim? … And on what basis you do?

    4- You claimed Zakat is to be determined by the leader!!! … Allahu Akbar!!! … From where did you come up with such conclusion? … And if you based it on Muhammad being the leader these days and collected Zakat on his estimation, where in Quran it supports Muhammad isn’t the leader for all Muslims all the times? … and where in Quran it says “after Muhammad dies, check what Zakat will be ordered by the next leader” … !!!!! … remember that Zakat was ordered numerous times as Prayers. Do you seriously think that Allah would leave such issue for human leaders to determine? …

    By the way, which leader you would give him the authority to determine the Zakat a Quranist shall pay?
    Is it the village leader? or the country leader? How about if a Christian leader was democratically elected? Do you wait your Quran instructed Zakat to be determined by him? … Do you think Allah would leave it on a Kafir? … Or could it be the United Nations leader? … or even NATO? …

    Moreover, here we go! … you accepted to perform your religious obligation (Zakat) according to estimation of a human called a leader. This doesn’t sound the same you in previous replies.

    5- Still without answer, Quran declared that there is a CALL for prayers in verse 62:9 … But didn’t describe the details of such call. … How do we know it? …
    And if there is a Call, who invented it, according to Quran?

    6- Quranists claim that we pray according to some Abrahamic rituals not made by Prophet Muhammad? … Cool! … How did you know the prayer we perform in its form today is Abrahamic? … Why not Noahic, Adamic? … Support your claim with evidence … or just express that such claim is merely a guess!

    At last …

    A message for other readers (not for you my friend):
    > A Quranist doesn’t have a form of prayer as Quran didn’t serve him with.
    > A Quranist doesn’t know how much Zakat. Instead waiting for a leader to inform him.
    > A Quranist believes Quran is detailed. Yet can’t prove in very essential matters like Salat and Zakat.

    Back to you my friend:
    I expected your reply. Because simply I know my questions hit straight to your ignorant claim (and blind generalization) that Quran is fully detailed. That’s why you’ve gone astray in two essential matters like Salat and Zakat. We are still scratching the surface of various matters of a Muslim life.

    Until you recognize and admit, which parts Quran is fully detailed with and which other part Allah had given to the job to the greatest teacher ever walked the earth, Muhammad Bin Abdullah (PBUH) and reached us via his Hadeeths … You’ll keep running after Barak Obama to till how much Zakat Allah ordered you to pay.

    Salam.

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    1. yaks4u Avatar
      yaks4u

      You said :

      “Even the website you’ve provided it’s link declares that “Quran lacks prayer description”!

      My response :

      Stop mixing facts! You are JUST TO BLIND to see that THE QURAN DOES NOT ‘LACK’ as you have chosen to put it… IT NEVER CONTAINED it. The website repeated the positon of the Quran.. Thats HOW GOD INTENTED IT. Not your manmade methods.

      You said :

      Allahu Akbar!!! … From where did you come up with such conclusion?

      My response :

      If you read the link i sent to you, you will see that ITS A QURANIC CONCLUSION.. The payment is to be determined based on the peoples situation and condtions by consultations amongst leaders..

      If 2.5 was okay for people of that time. considering low standard of living, and other social factors!!!! Every community was given the choice to choose based on their situation.. not uphold outdated laws.. because it was done 1400 years ago. SOCIO_ECONOMIC factors are big determinant.. THATS WHY the Quran, DOES NOT mention a fixed amount!!!.. Lets agree the 2.5% was what was being charged during the prophet.. its ONLY COMMON SENSE TO KNOW that it was a conclusion that they came to after consultation with his council… its not a law that is unchangable added to the laws side by side to that of ALLAH.

      You asked :
      How do i pray..

      My response.

      You seem to be oblivious of what the Quran says about prayer.. all the quotations and links.. anyways.. i will repeat them for you like a pre primary student would understand!!!

      Intention
      Ablution
      Stand
      recite from the Quran
      Bow down to Allah
      Postrate to Allah
      Do the DHirk of Allah and ALLAH ALONE.

      Alll the steps above and EVEN more have their verses in the Quran!!!

      You asked :

      By the way, which leader you would give him the authority to determine the Zakat

      My response :

      You fail to see that the Quran is progressive and was designed to evolve uniquely as the world evoled… The world is getting bigger.. Financial conditions of people in Arabia in seventh century definetly is diffeent Now.. Hence “SITUATIONS DETERMINE THE ZAKAAT MONEY”.. There are community leaders and heads of society who determine this.. NB : we are talking about an IDEAL ISLAMIC COMMUNITY.. other than that.. GIVE OFF EXCESSES (Anfal) after every harvest period(payday). This is sooo simple.. but i understand why you are not getting it.

      Your desperate attempt to declare the Quran as LACKING is what is preventing you from seeing that the Quran made prayer SIMPLE.. MORE SIMPLE that you can ever imagine..

      You said :

      62:9 … But didn’t describe the details of such call

      My response :

      You are like a robot.. You want and love TRADITION(what you found others following).

      A call to prayer DOES NOT AFFECT the quality of prayer… Know this. IT IS NOT EVEN NECESARY IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

      God should TEACH HOW TO CALL OTHERS TO COME FOR PRAYER??

      DARWISH!!!! your thoughts are seekining… If you tell your ten years old sun.. TO CALL HIS COLLEGUES TO GATHER IN ONE PLACE… You need not tell him how to do it. He could do it however way he likes simce he does NOT BREAK any rule in doing it!!! Your problem is … you are like those asking for UNECESARRY DETAILS about what cow to kill, colour, size etc until they were led astray!!!

      If you are familiar with the Hadiths.. you will know that the call to prayer as we have IS NOT from the prophet but one of his companions.. Hence its not something you will go to hell for if you dont uphold… additionally THE CALL AS WE HAVE IT.. HAS THE NAME OF MUHAMMED INSERTED!!! Historical sources proofs that its a later insertion. SHIRK.. putting the name of Muhammed beside that of Allah.

      You said :
      How did you know the prayer we perform in its form today is Abrahamic? … Why not Noahic, Adamic?

      My response :

      YOU KEEP PROOVING YOUR IGNORANCE OF THE QURAN!!!!!

      If you ONLY know the Quran.. you WILL KNOW THAT THE FIRST PROPHET EVER GIVEN THE RITUAL PRACTICES IS ABRAHAM. You will not show your ignorance by asking about prophets like NOAH..etc. You proof times and times without number that YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR OR SATISFIED WITH THE QURAN… You dont even know that the prophet Abraham was the first to observe salaat, zakaat ect.

      Well… No wonder the prophet would say on the Day of judgement THAT HIS PEOPLE HAVE DESSERTED THE QURAN as you can witness from above a grown up asking for why NOAH NOAHIC or ADAMIC

      Abraham was the first recipient of the concept of ISLAM, and the first user of the word “MUSLIM” (see 2:131).

      “You shall strive in the cause of God as you should. He has blessed you, and imposed no hardship in your religion; the RELIGION OF YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM. Abraham is the one who named you ‘Muslims’ in the beginning. Thus, the messenger serves as witness among you, just as you serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Salat prayers, give the Zakat charity, and hold fast to God; He is your Lord; the best Lord, and the best supporter.” (22:78)

      You said :

      A message for other readers (not for you my friend):
      > A Quranist doesn’t have a form of prayer as Quran didn’t serve him with.
      > A Quranist doesn’t know how much Zakat. Instead waiting for a leader to inform him.
      > A Quranist believes Quran is detailed. Yet can’t prove in very essential matters like Salat and Zakat.

      You hopelessly missed the oint here (every one not satisfied with the Quran would)

      This ‘right muslim’ who upholds the ‘right’ message of Allah has been told TIMES without number to desist from calling me a quranist.. HE HOPELESSLY fails in Upholding this simple request.

      I am sure the readers would know your kind of mentallity and what type of religion he belongs to

      I wont comment further on the matters above.

      Its simple ___ Stick to Allahs Revelations(Religious Laws).. what is in it FOLLOW.. WHat is not in it REJECT.. God NEVER intended it… If he did, IT WOULD BE CONTAINED in the Quran. Just as he said.. If the oceans of the world were ink and HE Allah is to write for us what he wants to say, no sooner would the waters in the ocean finish than more would be needed!! But he knows the Quran is enough for US!!!

      You said :

      That’s why you’ve gone astray in two essential matters like Salat and Zakat

      My response :

      Yes darwish. UPHOLDING AND HOLDING TIGHT UNTO THE ROPE OF ALLAH(QURAN) is WHAT is being described as GOING astray(God did not say ropes(lol)).. CANT STOP LAFFING!!!!! hahahahaha. But dont worry.. even the shia accuses me of the same thing and the Ahmadiyya accuses me of thesame thing. The difference between me and them is. I STICK TO THE QURAN ALONE(Gods words and what Muhammed thought) They stick to HEARSAYS(compiled ages after the death of Muhammed. Some they reject, some they uphold based on their whims and caprices).

      You said :

      Until you recognize and admit, which parts Quran is fully detailed with and which other part Allah had given to the job to the greatest teacher ever walked the earth, Muhammad Bin Abdullah (PBUH)

      My response:

      Obama?? Your obsession with the west and obama decieves you the most!!! I have not heard of Obama in weeks…

      Its the Arabs who blame the west for all their woes!! Its ironic that thesame west are in bed or have been in bed with alot of Arab leaders… the world knows of the support and partnership between the west and SUNNI fundamentalist.. the sponsorship from thesame arabia to salafist brand of islam… The working together of America with the TALIBAN (wahabi islam(stong upholders of the hadith)) to eject the soviets.

      That has birthed evils unparalled on earth today. Muslims have suffered more deaths in the hands of themselves than anyone else… Ironincaaly, most of you run and seek refuge in these countries of the west when your very horrible hadithic rules catch up with you and hunts you..

      TOday, syria, Lybia, toppled regimes by western and sectarian SUNNI fundamentalist (ISIS, ALQAEDA etc). You come here to tell us what?? Uphold laws that are nothing but GOSSIPS?? The laws of ignorance what the Quran describe as the laws of OLD!!! What a shame!!!

      or run to America, britian etc.. I have a friend, Born in saudi Arabia, a muslim but of Mali origin… SHE STILL IS NOT A CITIZEN of Saudi Arabia!!! What Backwardness, She is having her country of origin passprt…. Your hadiths are really helping.

      Thesame west are the calmest places for muslims.. they go there.. they seek assitance.. there are lots of muslim exiles their who evaded their countries because they are labelled murtads and blasphemous by rullings of your backward hadithic rules…

      Thesame west have a growing number of muslims because it emphasizes freedom of religion(a spirit of the Quran) that the soo called islamic countries who are even violent towards muslims of different sect.

      Thesame west send aid to most of your people.. If you want to talk about the west.. or Obama.. or any other of those guys which most of you arabs are obsessed with, THINK TWICE… Islam is for them too… Not for you the Arabs alone, and there are many westerners who are GOOD muslims.. NOT Al-Arabi muslims like you people!!!

      In relation to your response about Baduna.. The Qurans language is VERY clear.. Badawi plural.. Badu singular.. aterm refering to desert arabs.. making the term Al-Arabi simply ARABS in General… wether city dwellers or dessert dwellers.. You just too sturbbon to admit it..

      Its Good you admitted SOME bedouins are ARABS.. You ealier mentioned that THEY DONT EVEN SPEAK ARABIC… Not you are mentioning some similarities…

      Lastly… I shall give you an analogy!! and if in your next article, you DO THE NAME CALLING again… I wont continue wih the discussion. Because its obvious you cant keep simple dialogue manners eventhough you appear to be older and supposed to know better!

      Well it HURTS sooo much to reject what one has always believed in… It was thesame for me too…
      when i saw the TRUE MESSAGE, THE ONLY TRUE MESSAGE…

      The Quran broadcasts a very clear message. However, the problem is with our receivers. If our receiver does not hear the broadcast or cannot understand it well, then something is wrong with our receiver and we have to check it. If the signal is weak, we need to recharge our batteries, or reset our antennas. If we do not receive a clear message, we need to tune into the station, to the station of Quran alone, in order to get rid of the noises and interference from other sources. We may ask some help from knowledgeable people or experts for this task. If the receiver does not work at all, then we have to make a sincere effort to fix the broken parts. However, if we believe that the problem is in the broadcast, then nobody can help us. The divine broadcast can be heard in detail only by those who sincerely tune in, i.e., those who take it seriously and act accordingly.
      The condition of our receiver and the antenna, the power of the battery, and the precision level of our tuning are very important in getting the divine message properly.

      Salaamualaikum..

      Here is the

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      1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
        Mohammed Darwish

        Thanks for your response.

        First let me express my wonder why you keep switching your blog ID from “Muslim” to “yaks4u” and vice versa?! … Am I talking to two different persons with the same face profile picture? … or with one obsessed with changing his ID? … Anyway, It’s not really important as the discussion is about ideas not persons. But it worth to note.

        ———————————————————————————————

        > So! … You have an escape from every situation:
        You claim Quran is fully detailed but when stuck with a crucial demand for details that don’t exist in Quran, your refuge is “Allah intended to”! This doesn’t sound objective/realistic, especially 95% of Muslims believe Allah didn’t commit such mistake and did provide them with every detail they need via the secondary source of religion, the Sunnah.

        > You are ready to assume each and every reason why Allah intended to keep the form of Prayer not mentioned in Quran, except one reason: To force people like you to resort to Sunnah and pray the way Prophet did!

        For the sake of objectivity, can’t this be a possible reason?

        > You are ready to accept that today’s Form of Prayers has descended to us from Abraham, a staggering 4000 yeeeeeeaaaaaars ago providing that there are NO ANY WRITTEN DOCUMENT, SCRIPTURE OR PROOF THAT PROVES IT WAS PRACTICED BY ABRAHAM. Bowing and prostrating isn’t a trade mark for Abraham’s Religion, every nation considers such moves a viable meditation way.

        But that same time, you’re too blind to read a 1200 years document that describes a typical form of prayer made by the Prophet. And also read the Prophet’s order “PRAY AS YOU SAW ME PRAYING”?

        > Claiming 2.5% Zakat is an outdated law is merely an assertion. You came up with no proof that it shall be considered outdate, nor explained why not suitable for today! … You just omitted it from your map coz it’s 1200 years old. I wonder if you know the statistics that say if rich pay their 2.5% due Zakat today, poorness will vanish from earth.

        > According to 20/80 rule (Pareto Principle):
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

        20% of the people (rich class) owns 80% of the overall wealth, and
        80% of the people (middle class and poor) owns 20% of the overall wealth.

        Now distribute the 20% wealth (shared by the 80% people):
        16% (20% of 80%) of people (middle class) owns 16% (80% of 20%) of the wealth.
        64% (80% of 80%) of people (poor class) owns 4% (20% of 20%) of the wealth.

        Results:
        The Poor are 64% of population and own only 4% of the overall wealth.
        The Middle are 16% of population and own 16% of the overall wealth.
        The Rich are 20% of population and own 80% of the overall wealth.

        Combination of Rich and Middle makes them own 96% (16% + 80%) of the overall wealth.

        So, if non-poor (rich and middle) pay the 2.5% Zakat to the poor … they’re in fact migrating 2.4% (2.5% of 96%) of wealth to the Poor every year. THIS WILL ENSURE POOR JUMP TO MIDDLE CLASS WITHIN 5 YEAR!

        And because of the 20/80 rule is a universal law of efficiency, the same 2.5% Zakat will keep shifting Poor to Middle class in 5 years at any given time in history. Because nature laws (physics, chemistry, etc.) never change.

        Simply the 2.5% Zakat principle will apply until the Day of Judgment because 20/80 will also do.

        No wonder in many ages in Islamic History, poorness was reported to be ended, like the era of Khalifa Omar Bin Abdul Aziz. Zakat money didn’t find poor people to be paid to, thus went to civilian development, making new roads, digging new wells, building free houses to citizens, etc.).

        This is another proof that Sunnah is divine too (conveyed from Allah to the Prophet) regardless that some sects had invented their own broken narrations like Shia, or even some rejected all Sunnah, like you.

        ————————————————————————————-

        By the way, I’ll keep calling you “Quranist” as I can’t call you a “Muslim” for other Muslims not to get confused. According to my interpretation of Quran (Obey Allah and Obey the Prophet), I find you not only a sinner but a total deviant from Allah’s message. And please remember that you’re following your own interpretation of the Quran not the Quran itself.

        I’m sorry my friend. I’ll not betray my knowledge. And please remember, if you have your own interpretations to Quran, others have their own too. So, please respect this fact. Call me “Sunni” if you will. I’m proud being so.

        ————————————————————————————-

        You described your prayer like:
        Intention
        Ablution
        Stand
        recite from the Quran
        Bow down to Allah
        Postrate to Allah
        Do the DHirk of Allah and ALLAH ALONE

        Sure such motions were mentioned in Quran. You brought nothing new. However, I still don’t know how many Bow downs? Postrates? You do? … and, based on what reference? Are you bowing 2 times, 3, 4, 10 in each rakaa? … you’re giving no details … things are still ambiguous. Please be more specific … I need answers.

        Keeping it ambiguous, in my opinions, if there are 2 Billion Muslim on earth today, we will see 2 Billion different form of Prayers! As long as moves are concerned.

        Did you get it or not yet? … The good news is that Allah didn’t leave it for people like you, but ordered the Prophet to PORTRAY AND ACT the prayers in front of the followers in order to be followed to its specifics. Prayers in addition to its spiritual dimension has many social benefits like UNITY in action as well. Quran said, you’ll see the believers (in plural) bowing and postrating, in a mention of doing it in groups. Same essence was described in Juma prayers. Same essence was described in Prayers of Fear, where a group shall join and a group shall watch the enemy then swap.

        Your ambiguous definition of Prayers without any specifics hits directly into the concept of UNITY AMONG MUSLIMS during prayers. And 75 million Shia praying different out of 2 Billion Muslims doesn’t prove anything.

        ——————————————————————————-

        You claimed that this is your Zakat style “other than that.. GIVE OFF EXCESSES (Anfal) after every harvest period(payday)”

        Believe me my friend, I couldn’t help myself but laugh! …
        Anfal is the booty of war! … Allah described to the Prophet how to get it distributed.

        In addition to the severe mix between the concept of ANFAL and ZAKAT you’re are polluting this page with, there’s nothing called excess! … Excess of WHAT? … And how do I determine such excess starting limit?

        And stop running away from my request for details by metaphoring my request to those who ask about unnecessary details?! … IF you ever read the Quran, you’ll find that Muslims kept asking about each and every detail about their religion.

        Quran 2:189 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons.”
        Quran 2:215 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend.”
        Quran 2:217 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the sacred month”
        Quran 2:219 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about wine and gambling.”
        Quran 2:220 “And they ask you about orphans.”
        Quran 2:222 “And they ask you about menstruation.”
        Quran 5:4 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], what has been made lawful for them.”

        There are many other “They ask you” verses … Which means Muslims has the right to ask for the details of their religion. Quran recommended not to ask many personal questions as one may find some unpleasant answers. However, when it comes about details of their religion they had an open platform to ask … proven tens of verses … where non of them Allah did condemn their questions but gave answers.

        So, when I ask you how do you pray? How many rakaa? … how many prostrates per rakaa? … How many bows per rakaa? … please give answers and stop hiding behind Children of Israel story when they asked many questions while the answer was pretty simple. Hit him with a piece of a cow.

        Anyway, I know you would’t come with an answer. Because without Sunnah you’re lost and stripped out of many crucial details about Islam. Instead, keep dancing around some general terms that, even, mostly placed in a wrong context, that’s a typical situation of Sunnah rejector.

        If you claim you know the details, then put them on this page with necessary references and STOP DANCING. Give me the number of bows and prostrates and cycles YOU YOURSELF DO WHILE PRAYER.

        ——————————————————————————–

        THE CALL TO PRAYERS:

        Again, you’re dancing around. Struggling to pass a silly answer. If I will ask my son to call for a meeting he will do. But is your son going to call the same style/way/form?
        You’re are creating 2 Billions sects among Muslims if you ever able to get it.

        Why not we call for prayers by ringing a bill like Churches? It’s a good idea, isn’t it?
        Or with some fire works? … Or with Fire Fighting Sirens? … Or verbally via speakers?
        You can’t argue any of them isn’t a viable way to gather people!

        Please STOP EMBARRASING YOURSELF.

        Sunnah says that one Sahaba told his dream to the Prophet about a certain words to be said in order to gather people for prayers. The Prophet approved and adopted them. And ever since Muslim mosques are following the Prophet. Full Stop.

        ———————————————————————————–

        OBAMA:

        When I said “wait for Obama to till you how much Zakat is” was out of making fun of your unprecedented claim “leader has to decide Zakat” … I didn’t have any other intentions.

        However, you jumped to Arabs and brought many called them with many bad names. I never expected such racist reply. And I answer with the following:

        > Arabs are living in post colonial era. Just like Turks, Africans (including Nigeria) and other colonized nations. Arabs are no special among them.

        > It’s not a secret that colonialism had left poppet governments behind. Working for its benefit of which usually contradicts the benefits of its own people.

        > Most of Muslims today (not only Arabs) are living under secular governments not Islamic.

        > Not only Arabs are trying to make a better life in the West. I bit you’ll find each and every language/color/religion/race standing in ques in front of European/American/Canadian/Australian embassies. So, you calling only Arabs with this reflects a smell of a special hate towards them within you.

        > Running after a better life is ordered by Quran. Running away from unfair governments is also ordered by Quran. Allah will ask them in Judgment Day, Why you kept living weak in your lands? Why you didn’t migrate in the vast land of Allah? …
        So you making fun of this, and at the same time considering immigration is something wrong renders you unbeliever of the Quran.

        > However, when it comes to Arabs, they still have a long history of glory. Built ancient well known civilizations and empires.

        > Almighty Allah had chosen Arab’s language to encapsulate His message to humanity. This alone gives Arabs enough proudness until the end of time that no any other nation/race has.

        > Allah had chosen the Last and Mightiest Messenger in History from Arabs. Not Chinese, Not Anglo Saxons, Not African, Not Russian. This alone is another source of proudness among Arabs that no other nation has it.

        > Arabs hold the favor on you being a believer on Quran. If they didn’t spread Islam to the world after the death of the Prophet you wouldn’t be what you are today. So, please pay some respect to this fact.

        > We know that fact that in front of Allah, Arabs and Non-Arabs are the same. But in this world, Arabs of course possess many honors that no other nation has.

        So please don’t look from a narrow whole to the matter. And keep in mind, time changes. Who are on top never remain there and who on bottom never remain there. Looking to a certain nation from a much localized moment of time is, sure, a short sight.

        —————————————————————————————

        Salam,

        Like

  25. yaks4u Avatar
    yaks4u

    salaam…

    Thanks for your response… Those reading will see how you consistently expose yourself to the ignorance of the Quran even though you claim to read it in Arabic.. I hope you will see it too.. I hope you will read EVERY LINE OF MY RESPONSE.. Because as you will notice from this article.. I READ EVERY LETTER of your post

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    You said :
    First let me express my wonder why you keep switching your blog ID from “Muslim” to “yaks4u” and vice versa?

    My response :
    Its THESAME person, My default ID is Yaks4u, that was the WORDPRESS ID I created about 3 years Ago, The ‘muslim’ appears only when i directly change it before sending my messages, Sometimes i simply forget to change it.. SO DONT MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF IT.. afterall the picture remains thesame me, and most importantly, By now you should ‘understand’ the partern of our discusion.

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    YOu Said ;

    You claim Quran is fully detailed but when stuck with a crucial demand for details that don’t exist in Quran, your refuge is “Allah intended to”

    My response :

    ITS NOT ME CLAIMING IT IS FULLY DEATILED DARWISH! ALLAH OUR CREATOR, WHOM YOU HAVE DISOBEYED BY INSISTING THE QURAN IS NOT DETAILED ENOUGH Is the one WHO SAID IT IS FULLY DETAILED!!! as a matter of fact IT IS DETAILED! Its not a claim.. its written within the pages of the Quran SEVERAL TIMES.

    Why dont you LISTEN AND DIGEST THE WORDS OF ALLAH! The reader will notice by now how you KEEP ignoring the following verses :

    ================================================
    ================================================

    “And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit.” (Qur’an 16:89)

    “Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? When it is He Who has revealed to you the Book fully detailed?” (Qur’an 6:114)”

    “We have brought them a Scripture – We have explained it on the basis of knowledge – as guidance and mercy for those who believe.” (Qur’an 7:52)

    [Quran 6:19] Say, “Whose testimony is the greatest?” Say, “God’s. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.” Say, “I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry.”

    [Quran 6:38] We did not leave anything out of this book.

    [Quran 10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

    [Quran 12:111] In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

    ==========================================
    ==========================================

    I have asked TIMES WITHOUT NUMBER, How do you relate to the verses above? Please tell me what THE ABOVE VERSES MEAN TO YOU.. Use WHATEVER translations you want. YOUR QURAN as YOU CLAIM.

    Common sense will tell you that WHEN GOD SAYS AN EXPLANATION of EVERYTHING.. it is within the context of “EVERYTHING one Needs for religious guidance” ..~~ It clearly does NOT contain laws on quantum physics or details of biology or any other scope for that matter.. and definetly not your MANMADE details!!!

    EVENTHOUGH God repeatedly asserts that HE IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF GUIDANCE.. AND THE GUIDANCE HE SENT TO MUHAMMED WAS THE QURAN ONLY AND THAT MUHAMMED MUST FOLLOW THE QURAN ONLY AND THAT MUHAMMED WAS ASKED BY SOME OF HIS COMPANIONS TO ADD AND INVENT SAYINGS IN ALLAHS NAME.. SOMETHING HE ALMOST DID BUT ALLAH SAVED HIM FROM… After His death, through the hadith they added wahtever is it they wanted to add.. Making islam(The religion of God alone) a HOLY partnership!!!

    Monotheism is redefined as a “Limited Partnership”, in which the recognition and submission to God alone becomes an oxymoron; a contradiction in terms in which other ‘partners’ are submitted to and accepted by people like darwish!

    The most common set-up for Sunni shirk is: the Quran (God) + hadiths and sunnah (messenger) + the practice of the Prophet’s companions + the practice of the companions of the Prophet’s companions + the opinions of emams (qiyas and ijtihad) + consensus of “ulama” in a particular sect (ijma’) + the comments and opinions of their students + the comments and opinions of early “ulama” + the comments and opinions of later “ulama” + the fatwas of living “ulama.”

    In Shiite version of shirk, in addition to the aforementioned partners, the 12 Infallible Emams (all relatives and descendants of the Prophet Muhammad starting with Ali) and the living substitute emam is added to the board of directors of the Holy Limited Partnership

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    YOu said :

    Especially 95% of Muslims believe Allah didn’t commit such mistake and did provide them with every detail

    My Response :

    95% including Shias? Ahmadiyyas? or which 95 percent are you talking about?? because Shias, Ahmadiyyas and some other sects are NOT considered muslims by the likes of you!!

    You are ready to admit the ABSURDITY THAT GOD provided CONTRADICTORY and CONFLICTING methods of prayer BECAUSE APPARENTLY (Your 95% included prayers of groups you believe are UNBELIEVERS AND INVALID PRAYERS (shias, Mubahilliyas, Ahmadiyyas, etc.))!!! Your Arguement IS SOO LAME and UNFOUNDED!!! You think becuase majority practices A DOCTRINE THEN IT MUST BE FROM ALLAH???!! What a Justification!! You think because majority DO something then it is right??

    Your IGNORANCE of the QURAN is Dumpfounding!!!!

    Just few verses AFTER GOD TOLD US the QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED(6:114), God told us about the dangers of following majoiry ~~~ MAJORITY MOSTLY FOLLOW (CONJECTURE – Hearsays, Gossips, (The hadith are a perfect FIT TO THE DESCRIPTION BECAUSE ITS COMPILATION IS BASED ON HEARSAY, GUESSING Mr DARWISH!!!))

    Muhsin and Hilali English Translation
    116. And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allahs Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie.

    SO PLEASE, STOP DISGRACING YOURSELF WITH UNFOUNDED DOCTRINES ABOUT MAJORITY!!! 95% Indeed!!
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    You said :
    You are ready to assume each and every reason why Allah intended to keep the form of Prayer not mentioned in Quran, except one reason: To force people like you to resort to Sunnah and pray the way Prophet did!

    My Response :

    No my brother!!! THERE IS A FORM of sallat in the Quran, you are just so bent on REJECTING THE QURANS FORM BECAUSE YOU CLAIM THE QURANS FORM IS NOT COMPLETE!!!

    Ablution is a form, Recitation is a form, Postrating is a form, Bowing is a form!You are JUST NOT SATISFIED with ALLAHS FORM.. you want Persian Made forms!!!
    You keep insisting on the number of BOWS!!! How we Bow ETC!! If ONLY you read the Quran, You will SEE that PEOPLE WHERE ALSO CRAZY ABOUT DETAILS DURING MOSES TIME.. Not ONLY were their EXTREME SACRIFICE AMOUNTING TO NOTHING!!(Inspite of all the deatials).. BUT ALLAH REPEATED SO WE DONT MAKE SIMILAR MISTAKES … Here is the story below.. MAYBE YOU WILL BE GUIDED :

    ==============================================
    ==============================================
    The Quran narrates the story about the request for unnecessary by the people of moses!!!

    Allah the Almighty says:

    {And [recall] when Moses said to his people, “Indeed, Allah commands you to slaughter a cow.” They said, “Do you take us in ridicule?” He said, “I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.”

    They said, “Call upon your Lord to make clear to us what it is.” [Moses] said, “[Allah] says, ‘It is a cow which is neither old nor virgin, but median between that,’ so do what you are commanded.”

    They said, “Call upon your Lord to show us what is her color.” He said, “He says, ‘It is a yellow cow, bright in color –pleasing to the observers.’ ”

    They said, “Call upon your Lord to make clear to us what it is. Indeed, [all] cows look alike to us. And indeed we, if Allah wills, will be guided.”

    He said, “He says, ‘It is a cow neither trained to plow the earth nor to irrigate the field, one free from fault with no spot upon her.’ “They said, “Now you have come with the truth.” So they slaughtered her, but they could hardly do it.
    ==============================================
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    MAYBE, JUST MAYBE.. You will see the SIMILARITIES between YOU and the PEOPLE… ALL ALLAH WANTS FROM US IS OUR ‘OBEDIENCE’ BROTHER.. NOT YOUR INVENTED DETAILS…

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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    You SAID :

    You are ready to accept that today’s Form of Prayers has descended to us from Abraham, a staggering 4000 yeeeeeeaaaaaars ago providing that there are NO ANY WRITTEN DOCUMENT, SCRIPTURE OR PROOF THAT PROVES IT WAS PRACTICED BY ABRAHAM.

    My Response :

    I NEVER SAID todays ‘FORM’ Was from Abraham.. I mentioned that THE FIRST reciepient of SALAAT was Abraham.. Because you had asked an IGNORANT QUESTION ABOUT “why not noah or adams! salaat” The Quran TOLD US the First MUSLIM who observed SALAAT and other ritual is ABRAHAM.. TOdays form of prayer 2.4.4.3.4 I TOLD YOU WAS copied from PERSIAN ZOROASTIANS(considering all Hadith COmpilers were PERSIANS(lol))….

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    You said :
    1200 years document that describes a typical form of prayer made by the Prophet. And also read the Prophet’s order “PRAY AS YOU SAW ME PRAYING”?

    My response :
    Amazingly, I was suprised to find OUT that the methods of prayer as reported by sunnis or shias (inspite of their contradictory NATURE!!) was NEVER reported from the lips of the prophet EVENTHOUGH He ascended to heaven to collect them!!! WHY WOULD the prophet leave SUCH an important matter in the hands of hadith compilers 220 years later!

    Now here is where the drama unfolds :

    FOR THOSE WHO are NOT AWARE : The story about ascension to heaven(bodily) is one of the LONGEST Hadiths in the hadith books, THE HADITH ABOUT HOW THE PROPHET WENT TO ALLAH TO COLLECT THE FIVE DAILY PRAYERS..

    The story goes that :

    The prophet went to ALLAH, The prayers given to him by ALLAH were initially 50 prayers a day.. On his way back, The prophet MET Prophet moses! Moses was smarter and more merciful than GOD(Ahudhubillah) to know that Muhammeds ummah CANNOT observe 50 salaat a day (one every 28mins)..

    The prophet kept going back forth and back, THe first time it was Halfed (25)/day and later halfed again(12.5)) until it was reduced to five!! ~~

    Darwish preferes to believe in this apparent fairy tale ; Muhammad as a union stewart bargaining with God on the number of daily prayers; but on the other side insulting him, implying that he could not understand that his followers cannot practice 50 prayers a day (a prayer per 28 minutes). After taking advice from Moses who was a resident of the 6th heaven, he reduced them to 5 prayers a day- after five times going up and down between Moses and God! ~

    Darwish preferes to believe in this STORY, than to stick to A SIMPLE Method of prayer establsihed by GOD!!! its easy for him to SWALLOW this Story… He HAS NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with this “CONJECTURE” But is amazed that I AM STICKING TO SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS in the QURAN ON HOW TO PRAY!! WOW!!! ~~~ The more you respond, The more you expose YOUR DISOBEDIENCE to SIMPLE Quranic Laws!!!

    Contrary to what you think darwish! The Details of SALAAAT in the Quran is PERFECT! COMPLETE.. AND FULLY DETAILED ~~

    Nevertheless, contrary to the popular belief, the Quran details contact prayers. The Quranic description of Salaat prayer is much more superior for the following reasons:

    1. The language of the Quran is superior to the language of hadiths. Hadiths are collections of narration containing numerous different dialects and are inflicted with chronic and endemic linguistic problems. The eloquence of the Quranic language is emphasized in the Quran with a repeated rhetorical question (54:17, 22, 32, 40). STRAIGTHFOWARD Laws given for salat.

    2. Hadith books may contain more details(contradictory in most cases). But are those details helpful and consistent with the Quran? How does a believer decide between conflicting details? Does he must pick the word of his favorite Imam? If we follow the words of a particular, favorite imam, does that meant that we are really following the practice of the prophet? For instance, you may find dozens of hadiths in Sahih Muslim narrating that the Prophet Muhammad read al-Fatiha and bowed down, without reading any additional verses from the Quran. You will find many other hadiths claiming that the Prophet read this or that chapter after al-Fatiha. There are also many conflicting hadiths regarding ablution which is the source of different rituals among sects. Hadith, more or less of them compounding God’s Word with contradictory details, cannot guide to the truth. It has become a necessary evil for ignorant believers and community leaders who manipulate them.

    SALAAT PRAYER ACCORDING TO THE QURAN

    The Salaat prayer is observed to commemorate and remember God alone (6:162; 20:14). Salaat prayer should be observed continuously until death (19:31; 70:23,34).

    Ablution

    To observe prayer one must make ablution (4:43; 5:6). Ablution is nullified only by sexual intercourse or passing urine or defecation. Ablution remains valid even if one has passed gas, shaking hands with the opposite sex, or a woman is menstruating. A menstruating woman may observe contact prayers, contrary to superstitious cultural beliefs (5:6; 2:222; 6:114-115). borrowed from oppressive jewish laws.. God forbade sex during menstruation but forgot to mention a prohibition in relation a CREED AS IMPORTANT AS SALAAT????

    Times For Prayer (Already explained in previous response), The Quran Mentions FIVE prayer times.

    Direction For Prayer

    For the prayer one must face the Sacred Masjid built by Abraham, the Ka’ba (2:125, 143-150; 22:26). Prayers, unlike fasting, cannot be performed later after they are missed ; they must be observed on time (4:103). People can pray whiles walking, lying down etc… this provisions are VERY clear in the Quran

    Congregational Prayer

    Believers, men and women, once a week are invited to a particular location to pray together every Juma (Congregational) Day. They go back to their work and normal daily schedule after the Congregational Prayer which could be led by either man or a woman (62:9-11). The mosques or masjids should be dedicated to God alone, thus, the invitation should be restricted to worship God alone, and no other name should be inscribed on the walls of masjids and none other than God should be commemorated (72:18-20). Those who go to masjids should dress nicely since masjids are for public worship and meetings (7:31).

    Position For Prayer

    One should start the Salaat prayer in standing position (2:238; 3:39; 4:102) and should not change his/her place except during unusual circumstances, such as while riding or driving (2:239). Submission to God should be declared physically and symbolically by first bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29). This physical ritual is not required at the times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239).

    Comprehension And Purpose Of Prayer

    We must comprehend the meaning of our prayers, as these are the moments in which we communicate directly with God (4:43). We must be reverent during our contact prayers (23:2). Along with understanding what we say, we can recall one of God’s attributes, depending on our need and condition during the time of our prayer (17:111). Prayer is to commemorate God, and God Alone (6:162; 20:14; 29:45). Prayer is to praise, exalt and remember His greatness, His Mercy and ultimately our dependence on each of these attributes (1:1-7; 20:14; 17:111; 2:45). So that even mentioning other names besides God’s contradicts our love and dependence on Him (72:18; 29:45).

    PRAYER IS DETAILED IN QURAN!!! NOT AS YOU OR OTHER SECTS PERFORM IT!!! So STOP THE IGNORANCES OF STILL ASKING FOR DETAILS GOD NEVER MENTIONED IN THE QURAN!! HE TOLD US ALL WE NEED FOR RELIGIOUS SALVATION IS THE QURAN.. THE ABOVE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH DETAILS FOR THOSE WHO ARE SATISFIED WITH GODS REPEATED ASSERTION THAT THE QURAN IS COMPLETE AND FULLY DETAILED!!!

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    You said :

    No wonder in many ages in Islamic History, poorness was reported to be ended, like the era of Khalifa Omar Bin Abdul Aziz. Zakat money didn’t find poor people to be paid to, thus went to civilian development, making new roads, digging new wells, building free houses to citizens, etc.).

    This is another proof that Sunnah is divine too (conveyed from Allah to the Prophet) regardlessthat some sects had invented their own broken narrations like Shia, or even some rejected all Sunnah, like you.

    My Response :

    Poorness was reported to be ended indeed!!!.. Its not suprising that THE ONLY example you had to give was the example of the AGE OF ISLAM BEFORE BUKHARI AND THE OTHER PERSIAN IMAMS INTRODUCED MANMADE LAWS…

    Your 2.5% Yearly is SOO good that THE POOREST SPOTS IN THE WORLD TODAY ARE PREDOMINALTY ISLAMIC(SHARIAH CONTROLLED) COUNTRIES.. IRONINCALLY, SOME OF THE RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ARE MUSLIMS!!! Sudan, Northern Nigeria, Central African Republic… the middle east.. ETC. The richect African is a man from NORTHERN Nigeria(Muslim), “Check the name (DANGOTE)” And other rich people, THE MUSLIM NORTHERN NIGERIA HAVE RULED THE COUNTRY FOR OVER 30Years .. BUT THE POOREST AND MOST ILLITERATE PART OF NIGERIA IS THESAME NORTH!!!!!! Where did you get your assumptions from?? You are just a disgrace, NOTHING MORE!!! You cannot even get your facts right!!!

    Remember these parts of Nigeria, or the mentioned areas PRACTICE SHARIAH.. A shariah system built on over 80% hadiths and sunnah(manMade laws)!!!

    IT is also not suprising that this success(you are so proud to mention) happened with KHALIFS WHO COLLECTED THESE VERY BOOKS OF HADITH AND BURNT THEM!!! THESE VERY PEOPLE WHERE THE STAUNCHEST REJECTORS OF THIS VERY HADITH!!! They made and distributed copies of the QURAN according to historical sources not copies of hadith books.. These people followed NOTHING but the Quran! They were satisfied with Gods law! ~~~

    They were NOT fabricators like the later generations… as you acknowledged! 1200.. It took roughly 300years for the infiltrations to occur(This is a historical fact ~ Sahih Bukharis date is a proof), similar to thesame time it took the bishops of the council of nicea to corrupt the message of Prophet Jesus and make him a God besides God!!! Approximately 300 years for sahih bukhari and al-kaafi to be developed!!! That began the problem of the problem in the islamic world… The ones thriving empire was charactrised by backwardness and sabbotage from one king to the other.. all fighting to introduce hadith that suits them..

    Up until the 1925s, THE FOUR SCHOOL OF THOUGHT PRAYED DIFFERENTLY IN THE HARAM! THEY EVEN ISSUED FATWAS PREVENTING MARRIAGE BETWEEN THEMSELVES!! ALL CALLING THEMSELVES NAMES AND EVEN CALLING THE OTHER A KAAFIR!!!

    If one is not a avid reader of history, it would almost be impossible to see think that MUSLIMS were the foundations of mordern day Science and technology! That it took MUSLIM SCHOLARS to save the books of philosophy written by historians like socrates, aristotle.. muslim scholars had STUDIED AND TRANSLATED ALL THESE BOOKS INTO ARABIC after alexander destroid most of the libraries!! ~ Today, Philosophy has become HARAAM!!! Sculpturing of statues etc are also declared Haraam based on Hadith books!! .. Forgetting that according to Allah and the Quran, Solomon Had Great statues(Thamateel) built for him by jins in his mansion!!!

    Later, Based on these very HADITH books, The illumination for the search of knowledge was put of!!! Philosophy was banned.. the islamic world lost it all… Today, the most illiterate parts of the Africa are predominantly muslims!!… relatively recently, BASED ON HADITH BOOKS, Sheik ibn bass of Saudi Arabia declared the earth to be flat and other outrageous facts … declaring anyone who believes contrary a kaafir!!!… (Saudi’s top clergymen, Abdul Aziz bin Ba’z, wrote a book claiming that the earth was flat and still. The book is full of references to hadith (narrations falsely attributed to the Prophet Muhammad) accompanied by murderous instructions:

    “If the earth is rotating as they claim, the countries, the mountains, the trees, the rivers, and the oceans will have no bottom and the people will see the eastern countries move to the west and the western countries move to the east. . . Those who claim that the earth is round and moving around the sun are apostates and their blood can be shed and their property can be taken in the name of God.” ) ~~~Abdulaziz Bin Ba’z, Al-Adillatul Naqliyyati wal Hissiyati ‘Ala Garayanil Shamsi wa Sukunil Ardi wa Imkanil Soudi Ilal Kawakibi (The Religious and Empirical Evidences that Sun is Moving and Earth is Still and the Possibility of Going to Planets), The Islamic University in Medina, Medina, 1975

    The above is the BEST hadith books can follow.. these were exemplery followers of the hadiths books!!!

    Jewish people inspite of their number HAVE MORE NOBEL PRICES than muslims.. They discourage what THEY IGNORANTLY CALL WESTERN EDUCATION.. forgetting it(western education) has its foundations FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD!! Algebra! Medicine.. advanced surgery, EVEN ALOGARITHMS (foundations of computer language) was developed by AL-khawarismi!!!

    The hadith books do NOT EVEN HAVE ANY CHAPTERS dedicated to INTELLECT. OR LOVE. OR JUSTICE!! The frequently MOST REPEATED FOUNDATIONS OF THE BOOK(Quran).. Obviously THE EARLIER MUSLIMS!!(The muslims of the Quran ALONE!!) were not BACKWARD followers of books that do nothing but encourage barabric laws and oppression of women!!!

    SO when you come here to quote your 20/80 rule and try to make it look like it was the sunnah that caused and sparked this descoveries in the islamic world REMEMBER YOUR CORPUS OF HADITH BECAME ACCEPTABLE LATER()about 250-400years later.. Considering Al-Gazali who was against philosophy and logical reasoning live about 1000 years ago!!!

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    You said :
    According to my interpretation of Quran (Obey Allah and Obey the Prophet), I find you not only a sinner but a total deviant from Allah’s message!

    My response :

    Just ADD it Already! I am a sinner and a kaafir.. You guys are notorious for labelling others KAAFIR.. The Quran was clear.. DO NOT CALL another who says salaam to you a Kaafir. you cant call me a muslim.. hence a kaafir. Because ones i am not a muslim.. i wonder whaty else you will define me to be

    Since you will follow YOUR DESIRES INSTEAD OF ALLAHs I CANT HELP YOU ; You have consistently demonstrated your DISOBEDIENCE FOR THE WORDS OF ALLAH

    Read the Ayat Below

    Pikthall English Translation

    Nisa 94
    O ye who believe! When ye go forth in the way of Allah , be careful to discriminate , and say not unto one who offereth you peace : “Thou are not a believer ; ” seeking the chance profits of this life. With Allah are plenteous spoils . Even thus ( as he now is ) were ye before ; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you . Therefore take care to discriminate . Allah is ever informed of what ye do .

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    YOU SAID :

    Your ambiguous definition of Prayers without any specifics hits directly into the concept of UNITY AMONG MUSLIMS during prayers. And 75 million Shia praying different out of 2 Billion Muslims doesn’t prove anything.

    My response :

    I have detailed WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ABOUT PRAYER AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! i still repeated it here!!! WHAT DARWISH CHOOSES TO SAY AMBIGIOUS!!! hahahaha… Funny.. those reading would know who OBEYS the QURAN and those who pay lip services that THE QURAN IS CLEAR and COMPLETE yet COME HERE TO SAY : AMBIGIOUS definition of prayer.. WOW!!! Brainwahs at it best..

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    You say :

    Quran 2:189 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons.”
    Quran 2:215 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend.”
    Quran 2:217 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the sacred month”
    Quran 2:219 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about wine and gambling.”
    Quran 2:220 “And they ask you about orphans.”
    Quran 2:222 “And they ask you about menstruation.”
    Quran 5:4 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], what has been made lawful for them.”

    There are many other “They ask you” verses
    \Which means Muslims has the right to ask for the details of their religion

    My response :

    Another DIABOLIC trick DARWISH intends to use to ENSNARE his readers in support of hadiths(more details)… A sincere reader of the Quran will notice that the answers to this questions were provided by Allah within the VERY verses he has decided to quote a part of, NOT LEFT for the prophet to speculate, You will see that ALLAH PROVIDED THE NSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS!!!!!

    There are No “They ask you” that is NOT followed by a description of what the prophets RESPONSE should be to the people asking….

    DARWISH! please Provide one of such verses where ALLAH said the prophet SHOULD tell them SOMETHING Other what he says should be said in the Quran!!!~~~

    You just exposed YOURSELF AGAIN!!!!! AND YOU WILL KEEP EXPOSINT YOURSELF.. I will pick up the verses that you tried to Use to confuse others as you are confused yourself and justification foe your manmade laws and complete it with the answers ALLAH TOLD HIM TO GIVE :

    first one

    2:189
    They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear God. Enter houses through the proper doors: And fear God: That ye may prosper.

    Second one :

    They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say: Whatever ye spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those in want and for wayfarers. And whatever ye do that is good, -God knoweth it well.

    Third One :
    2:217
    They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

    Fourth one :

    2:219
    They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth God Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

    etc.. the reader can check the rest

    By now the reader can confirm what DARWISH is trying to use for the JUSTIFICATION for his Manmade details EVENTHOUGH the answer to these questions were immediately provided within thesame VERSE he quoted, HE cunningly left out the answers to the questions in the verse to replace them with his hadiths!!!

    DARWISH THE LAIR!! Your lies have been exposed in your desperate attempts to support your invented religion!

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    You said :
    Please STOP EMBARRASING YOURSELF.

    Sunnah says that one Sahaba told his dream to the Prophet about a certain words to be said in order to gather people for prayers.

    My response:
    Yeah, Sunnah/hadith says alot of things..

    Drink camel urine..
    Water is contaminated by nothing, use water with menstruation cloth and dead dog for ablution
    Moses slapped the angel of death and his eyes removed as if he has got body..
    SO many other backward teachings…

    I am sure you are familiar with them.. some you reject, and choose based on your whims and desires..

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    You said ;

    However, you jumped to Arabs and brought many called them with many bad names. I never expected such racist reply

    My response :

    funny! Trying to twist and get emotional points.. you are matured and grown than this brother..

    I am not being racist AT ALL.. If in any of my statements where interpreted to be racist, FORGIVE ME!!!!

    You eventually ended REPEATING the problems in the Arab world that i mentioned in my writting!!! The despodic regimes.. the backward laws.. the barbaric teachings.. SO WHERE IS MY SO CALLED BAD names when you eventually ended up mentioning them yourself??? I also mention sudan and northern Nigeria DARWISH.. I guess these people are Arabs by your definition.. Or you will pretend to say that MOST muslims have not been brainwashed to see the WEST as their enemies.. THESAME west you refered to as a place where muslims are trying to “better life in the West.” additionally brother DARWISH! there is a whole SECT based on HADITHs Calling themselves BOKO HARAM!! So please stop the SENTIMENTS.. ITS UNFOUNDED.. I did not mention ONLY arabs.. read again!!!

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    You said :

    Running after a better life is ordered by Quran. Running away from unfair governments is also ordered by Quran. Allah will ask them in Judgment Day, Why you kept living weak in your lands? Why you didn’t migrate in the vast land of Allah?

    My response :

    So by Extention, you are saying GOING TO THE WEST IS GOING AFTER A BETTER LIFE?? cant stp laughing!!! Remember they are NOT hadith followers.. BUT HONEST PEOPLE.. Honest enough to care about their country.. Their greatest threats today remains YOUR BROTHERS WHO ARE FAITHFULL UPHOLDERS OF HADITH BOOKS.. Taliban failed in Afganistan in trying to institute STRICT SHARIA.. Khoemin also Failed in IRAN!!! Afghanistan was a NIGHTMARE!! with women suffering the most!! The Aftermath of LIVING THE HADITH!!! and little RELAINCE on the QURAN

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    You said :
    However, when it comes to Arabs, they still have a long history of glory. Built ancient well known civilizations and empires.

    My response :

    I already responded to this above brother darwish!! YES.. Arabs under the Quran flourished! aorund the world.. knowldge and a renaisance THE WORLD had never seen before!! This started DECLINING sharply when the CANONIZATION of the Hadith started.. STUDY YOUR HISTORY CLOSELY!! almost everything became haraam!! Kings used it to seize lands figthing war in the name of the prophet!! Inventing hadiths like I HAVE BEEN MADE VITORIOUS WITH THE SWORD!!

    History has it that the TAKE OVER OF MANY PLACES AS WELL AS JERUSALEM WAS DONE PEACEFULLY with Negotiatiosn.. BUT WE HAVE MANY HADITH SUPPORTING Killing of women and children in war.. ASK FOR REFERENCES I will give them to you!!! You think it was these laws that the ARABS upholded when they RULED the world INTELLECTUALLY??? funny!!! Ask yourself again!!!

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    You said :
    Allah had chosen the Last and Mightiest Messenger in History from Arabs. Not Chinese, Not Anglo Saxons, Not African, Not Russian. This alone is another source of proudness among Arabs that no other nation has it.

    My response :

    God commands us not to make any distinction among messengers (2:285). Believers’ attitude towards God’s commandments is to say “we hear and we obey”; but those who manipulate words say “we hear and we disobey” (4:46). God has blessed His messengers with different peculiarities.

    You saying is the mighiest is a flagrant disobedience of the above verse!! every nation had recieved a messenger.. so is the message of the Quran eventhough the Quran only mentions some of them.

    people like you DO NOTHING but put to make distinction between messengers : Those who are greater and decalring the prophet mightiest :

    While you claim that the last prophet is the mightiest, someone may claim that the first prophet deserves this rank. Another may claim that Jesus is the greatest prophet and can support his claim by Jesus’ miraculous birth (19:19), his title as being “word of God” (4:171), being a prophet from birth day (19:30), his numerous miracles such as reviving the dead by God’s permission (3:49), and being mentioned in a verse that states God’s blessing to the messengers (2:253). Another person may claim that Moses is the highest, basing it on the same verse 2:253, and saying that the only prophet that God talked to was Moses (4:164). If another puts David on the top of the messengers list based on 17:55 what can you say? If yet another comes and claims that Abraham is the greatest prophet and supports his claim by the fact that Muhammad was his follower and God has chosen Abraham as His beloved friend (4:125), what can you say? If still another comes and claims that Idris is greater than Muhammad and supports claim by saying that God may give Muhammad an honorable rank (17:79); but God exalted Idris to a lofty rank (19:57), what can you say? If another one arranges the messengers according to their frequency of occurrence in the Quran, and puts Moses on the top (136 times), Abraham the second (69 times), and puts Muhammad as the 19th or 21st prophet from the top of the list, what can you say?

    So please, STICK TO THE ADVICE OF THE QURAN AND DESIST FROM BLASPHEMOUS STATEMENTS like the above

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    You said
    Arabs hold the favor on you being a believer on Quran. If they didn’t spread Islam to the world after the death of the Prophet you wouldn’t be what you are today. So, please pay some respect to this fact.

    My response :

    You know GOD can raise MOUNTAINS to do these if he wills… Yet again.. your ignorance… Or you mean THE PERSIAN HADITH COMPILERS!!! Laughing really hard!! Its unfortunate THE COMPILERS OF HADITH WHERE ALL PERSIANS!!!

    Let me tell you this :

    The QURAN IS COMPLETE PERFECT AND FULLY DETAILED!

    The prophet THOUGHT the Quran USING THE QURAN ALONE. Not ADDING TO IT.

    When a teacher teaches you a book, He does NOT replace a 4step process to about 8 or 9 (Ablution).

    When a teacher teaches a book, He does not Say, A part of the book has become INVALID… especially when he had told you in the begining that NOTHING CHANGES in the book.

    When a teacher teaches you, HE DOES NOT INTRODUCE ANY LAW OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF THE BOOK, Especially when he himself has said from the begining THAT HIS ONLY SOURCE OF TEACHING you is the Book!!! AND THAT THE BOOK HE HAS BROUGHT TO YOU IS FULLY DETAILED AND COMPLETE!!!!

    When a curious student comes accross a teaching NOT EXISTING in the book and was told that THE TEACHER THOUGHT SUCH A TEACHING.. You can Immediately DISMISS their “lies” by REFERENCING THE ORIGINAL BOOK AND GUIDE THE TEACHER BROUGHT

    I hope you get the gist!!!

    He THOUGHT THE BOOK, STICKING TO THE LAWS OF THE BOOK!!!!

    Peace on you brother.. I Wish you and your family well

    Like

    Reply
    1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      I apologize for being extremely busy these days.
      Let’s resume our discussions after Hajj and Eid.
      Happy Eid for you and all the Muslim world.

      See you,,,

      Like

      Reply
      1. yaks4u Avatar
        yaks4u

        Enjoy your festivities.

        Salaam mu alaikum.

        Like

      2. Waqas Avatar
        Waqas

        Guys please continue.

        Like

  26. yaks4u Avatar
    yaks4u

    I don’t have a problem continuing , I have been waiting…… its been several days after hajj and its festivals. May God grant the death Muslims Janna. Even though Hajj can be attended withing a period of four months. people have decided to make it within one period and now look at the challenges and the problems!!!

    Like

    Reply
    1. Mohammed Darwish Avatar
      Mohammed Darwish

      Salam Alykum Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh;
      Yes it was a long time ago. We went through the festival time (Eid Al-Adha) … However, me being a 16 hours per day working man (my own business), I honestly don’t find enough time to set and formulate my posts. You know, it needs a little bit of clear mind and time.

      However, when some respected reader asked for a continuation, and your respected self had come again, I found myself with no choice but to take some time to put this last post. Especially that you deserve a reply for me as you took the time to formulate your last, relatively long reply. I do respect the valuable time you took for it.
      This will be my last contribution to this thread. At least on the time being. Allah knows the future.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> “EVERYTHING one Needs for religious guidance”!!!
      Wrong! … Proven by the silliness of your answers to my religious questions put in the last post. The answers of which will make each Muslim follows his own Islamic “style”. Ending them up like the Christians, that each Christian has his/her own style.
      Of course your methodology hits straight with what Quran asserted that Allah made us ONE ummah!

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> “HE IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF GUIDANCE.. AND THE GUIDANCE HE SENT TO MUHAMMED WAS THE QURAN ONLY AND”
      Wrong! … Allah said in Quran that he sent to Muhammad (PBUH) the Book and Wisdom.
      Now if you claim that Wisdom is the Book, then it’s either you have a logical linguistic problem, or Allah doesn’t know the meaning of the word “AND” and it’s proper use.
      It’s obvious that the “Book” is the Quran and “Wisdom” is every other wise info the prophet conveyed to us not mentioned in Quran. i.e. Sunnah.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >>> The most common set-up for Sunni shirk is: the Quran (God) + hadiths and sunnah (messenger) + the practice of the Prophet’s companions + the practice of the companions of the Prophet’s companions + the opinions of emams (qiyas and ijtihad) + consensus of “ulama” in a particular sect (ijma’) + the comments and opinions of their students + the comments and opinions of early “ulama” + the comments and opinions of later “ulama” + the fatwas of living “ulama.”

      Wrong! … Coz with authentic narration … all those you (and I) have mentioned root back to the same origin. Allah’s message on earth. Book (Quran) and Wisdom (Sunnah).

      In Shia, narration is corrupted that’s why I’ll agree with your description, they ended up Mushriks.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Muhsin and Hilali English Translation
      116. And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allahs Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie.
      SO PLEASE, STOP DISGRACING YOURSELF WITH UNFOUNDED DOCTRINES ABOUT MAJORITY!!! 95% Indeed!!

      Wrong! … Because when Quran said “following most of those on earth” … Did Quran include the Prophet among those expressed as “most of those on earth”? … Of course not!
      Therefore when majority follows the Prophet, you can’t apply this “most of those on earth” Quranic warning on them. Again, a huge mistake committed by you.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> No my brother!!! THERE IS A FORM of sallat in the Quran, you are just so bent on REJECTING THE QURANS FORM BECAUSE YOU CLAIM THE QURANS FORM IS NOT COMPLETE!!!
      Ablution is a form, Recitation is a form, Postrating is a form, Bowing is a form!You are JUST NOT SATISFIED with ALLAHS FORM.. you want Persian Made forms!!!

      Ambiguous … Ambiguous … Ambiguous!
      What shall I recite?
      How many times shall I prostrate during a prayer?
      How many times shall I Bow during a prayer?
      What way/words call for prayer shall be?

      Either you answer me these questions in a satisfying detail? … or stop calling what you have in Quran a “FORM” because this term “FORM” can’t contain ambiguity.
      Bottom line, Allah is forcing people like you to take the Prophet Sunnah to get into the details. Or else get lost in the darkness of ambiguity and self-made worships.

      I admire the satanic wisdom behind inventing this cult of “rejecting the Sunnah”, as it truly rips the Muslim off the deen. Leaving him in the ocean of astrayness.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> MAYBE, JUST MAYBE.. You will see the SIMILARITIES between YOU and the PEOPLE… ALL ALLAH WANTS FROM US IS OUR ‘OBEDIENCE’ BROTHER.. NOT YOUR INVENTED DETAILS…

      So why Allah in kept answering Sahaba questions to the Prophet in details within Quran?
      Quran 2:189 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons.”
      Quran 2:215 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend.”
      Quran 2:217 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the sacred month”
      Quran 2:219 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], about wine and gambling.”
      Quran 2:220 “And they ask you about orphans.”
      Quran 2:222 “And they ask you about menstruation.”
      Quran 5:4 “They ask you, [O Muhammad], what has been made lawful for them.”

      You are mixed up between NECESSARY questions and UNNECSSARY:
      Jews question on color of the cow after Moses says use a cow part was foolish and unnecessary …
      But Sahaba asking the prophet “technical” questions that deepens their knowledge on the deen were answered by Quran … for a simple reason … they were necessary.
      You missing the genuine difference between knowing women laws during menstruation … and jews asking for the color of the cow … makes your thinking process no smarter than the cow! (with respect).

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> TOdays form of prayer 2.4.4.3.4 I TOLD YOU WAS copied from PERSIAN ZOROASTIANS(considering all Hadith COmpilers were PERSIANS(lol))….

      Because Hadith compliers were Persians then mentioned prayers in their books are from a Persian origin! … What a genius conclusion!!!

      First: Put forward your evidence that 2.4.4.3.4 was even Persian.
      Second: Your “foolish” claim implies that such 2.4.4.3.4 was not practiced among Muslim Arabs before the appearance of those “Persian” writers! … Prove it …
      Third: If Muslim Arabs were practicing – let’s say – 3.5.4.9.4 since Prophet time and after his death then all the way to year 250 after the Prophet … then all of a sudden a Persian writer writes in a book prayer shall be 2.4.4.3.4 … would the millions of Arabs follow him? …
      Where is your brain?

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> For instance, you may find dozens of hadiths in Sahih Muslim narrating that the Prophet Muhammad read al-Fatiha and bowed down, without reading any additional verses from the Quran. You will find many other hadiths claiming that the Prophet read this or that chapter after al-Fatiha.”

      WHY NOT? … I don’t call it contradictions but versions.
      At least Sahih narrates 2 or 3 versions, while you Quranist want to keep it ambiguous for Muslims to invent their own 2 Billion vesions. Sahih books are still safer than you Quranist.
      Moreover, would you please prove that God doesn’t permit both styles? … if you fail proving it, so how do you claim they are contradictory? …

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Poorness was reported to be ended indeed!!!.. Its not suprising that THE ONLY example you had to give was the example of the AGE OF ISLAM BEFORE BUKHARI AND THE OTHER PERSIAN IMAMS INTRODUCED MANMADE LAWS…

      Wrong! … Read on Baghdad during Abbasi era … Read on Ottoman on it’s peak 15th and 16th cen. … read on India after spread of Islam 15th cen. … Read in Andalusia through out 700 years!!! …
      The divinely inspired 2.5% had definitely worked like a charm among Muslim communities.
      You don’t know even what are you talking about.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Your 2.5% Yearly is SOO good that THE POOREST SPOTS IN THE WORLD TODAY ARE PREDOMINALTY ISLAMIC(SHARIAH CONTROLLED) COUNTRIES.

      Name the Arabic Country that implies Sharia in its full today?
      Name the Arabic Country that collects 2.5% by force from its citizens today?

      You are definitely a victim of Non-Muslim spammers in internet who wants to blame Islam for non-Islamic regimes mistakes …

      In NIGERIA, your own country, you need to read on John Beecroft, Beecroft and the Niger Company’s charter. Understand who sucked your blood and Palm Oil for decades rendering locals resource less and poor. If you won’t mention the name of Britain, then you are no more than a dirty spy. Don’t you think from 1900 to 1960 Brits didn’t make sure a puppet government takes over after they leave?!

      Again, Blaming Islam for the dirtiness of the Western barbarism.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> IT is also not suprising that this success(you are so proud to mention) happened with KHALIFS WHO COLLECTED THESE VERY BOOKS OF HADITH AND BURNT THEM!!! THESE VERY PEOPLE WHERE THE STAUNCHEST REJECTORS OF THIS VERY HADITH!!! They made and distributed copies of the QURAN according to historical sources not copies of hadith books.. These people followed NOTHING but the Quran! “

      Are you talking about Khalif Othman who distributed Quran copies? … Why would he need to write a Sunnah book for the all the community still remember the words of the prophet word for word???? … Even your examples are corrupt.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Jewish people inspite of their number HAVE MORE NOBEL PRICES than muslims.
      Yeah … That what happens when a Jew gives the prize to a Jew.
      How many Muslim scientist who deserved it more, you never know, cuz they never let such Muslim appear in their Jewish controlled media. However, I don’t under estimate Jews’ efforts. I will have to say they are hard working people. And this is God’s law on earth. If you plant you harvest. Laws of nature are the property of those who research for it, irrespective of the religion/race/color/geography.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> The hadith books do NOT EVEN HAVE ANY CHAPTERS dedicated to INTELLECT. OR LOVE. OR JUSTICE!!

      Ignorance … ignorance … ignorance…
      It’s obvious how satan took you to the dirty websites trying to haram the Prophet’s Sunnah but didn’t take you to Sunnah website for an enthusiased objective honest research.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Just ADD it Already! I am a sinner and a kaafir.. You guys are notorious for labelling others KAAFIR.. The Quran was clear.. DO NOT CALL another who says salaam to you a Kaafir. you cant call me a muslim.. hence a kaafir. Because ones i am not a muslim.. i wonder whaty else you will define me to be.

      1- You already called me a Mushrik. You are notorious too. Don’t play the victim game.
      2- Yes, It’s our job as Muslims to call others Kafirs. That’s our job. That’s the black and white Allah ordered us to be. It’s either a Muslim or Kafir, there is no third.
      3- Why you ignored the verses talked about hypcrites that not only said Salam to others but joined their lessons with the prophet. Yet Allah condemned them and called them Kafirs … and will be in a special 5 stars Jahannam … the lowest rock bottom room in Jahannam!
      4- Because you are astray and not believing in Sunnah that’s why “Asbab Al Nozool – Reasons of Descend” … that’s why you don’t know what the verse “Don’t say to those who say Salam on you, are not Muslims” … and you started spamming the use of the verse.

      Islam is a complete web of instructions connected to each other, if you miss a part of it, you miss the whole picture. Which is obvious you did.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> A sincere reader of the Quran will notice that the answers to this questions were provided by Allah within the VERY verses he has decided to quote a part of, NOT LEFT for the prophet to speculate, You will see that ALLAH PROVIDED THE NSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS!!!!!

      When are you going to stop such straw man technique! All readers are smart enough to detect.

      Your reply pretends that my question was originally, Did Allah answer these questions? … and then you “brilliantly” prove that Allah did answer them but I hid the rest of the verse … Wow … what an uncovered technique!

      The context is that … Did Allah condemn Muslims for asking for more details from the prophet, like He condemned Jews in the cow story? … This was the question. You didn’t only avoid the question but tried to straw man it! … Double crime.

      My goal is to debunk your claim that DON’T ASK FOR DETIALS, DON’T BE LIKE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL!!! … by bringing you the verses of “they ask you” just to prove that questions for more details were welcomed by Allah and never been condemned.

      Do you know why? … Because questions were categorized “NECESSARY”

      Same time, Quran also had warned Muslims for asking about somethings then they would feel bad and regret after wards … Do you know what does that mean? … Muslim shall be wise enough to differentiate between NECESSARY and UNNECESSARY questions.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Drink camel urine..

      I wrote a response on this before. I proved you urine as urine is a proven medical tool for healing many illnesses. I proved you ignorant. Go back and read my response if you didn’t yet.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Water is contaminated by nothing.
      True! … but you don’t know which water the prophet described here!
      It’s running waters (like rivers) and massive water reservoirs (like seas and oceans). Yes, they never get contaminated. Even man made pollution didn’t really stop Hindos of India from drinking from and swimming in their extra polluted holy river!

      Instead you laugh on Sunnah you better laugh at your ignorance.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> use water with menstruation cloth.

      Oh yeah, women used to clean their menstruation cloth with DETOL disinfectant from Adam time to the 19th cen. industrial revolution, not water!

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> Moses slapped the angel of death and his eyes removed as if he has got body..
      SO many other backward teachings…

      Again, that’s GHAYB “Unknowns” … Both of us can’t neither confirm it’s right or wrong … or else, come forward and falsify it!!!! … Angles can be made with bodies. Allah sent two angles to visit Abraham before the destroy the Land of Sodom.

      In principle, can’t Allah send angel of death in a body form to Moses? … Answer? … can or can’t Allah do it? … not only with a body but with a WEAK body enough for a body built prophet (Moses) hits him … can or can’t Allah? ANSWERRRRRRR?

      I’m neither confirming or rejecting such story. I’m assuming it as a joke. It’s a tail of paranormal … and if it was authentically narrated back to Prophet Muhammad, then YES, IT HAPPENED INDEED … whether this pisses you off or not. I don’t really care.

      You’re the one in trouble not me … as you said “False” for something you can’t falsify!
      Go check back your logic, may Allah guide you.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> This started DECLINING sharply when the CANONIZATION of the Hadith started.. STUDY YOUR HISTORY CLOSELY!! almost everything became haraam!! Kings used it to seize lands figthing war in the name of the prophet!! Inventing hadiths like I HAVE BEEN MADE VITORIOUS WITH THE SWORD!!

      Buddy, you’re connecting the wrong dots here!
      Decline of Arabs took place on the 12th cen. After they were double invaded by the barbarian Crusaders from the West and barbarian Mongols from the East. It took place about the same century – the 13th and Barbaric Christians in Andalusia in the far West.

      On scientific level, Arabs before those barbaric invasions were the beacon of science in the world! … In Baghdad alone, it had the world’s largest library in its time called “The House of Wisdom” … It contained hotels for scientists/researchers free of charge for local and foreigners … It contained a staggering 15 MILLION book …that was nearly 800 years ago!
      Mongols dumped most of the books in river Degla enough to make a bridge for their horses and wagons to cross! … and burned the other. … History book states that river color turned red because of the ink in these books … (Red ink was in use these days, not blue).

      Crusaders burned the following libraries to the ground:
      Tripoli Library, Gaza Library, Jerusalem Library and Ashkelon Library. Crusaders remained for 200 yrs till 1295 AD. The estimated number of transcripts lost was around 3 million book.

      In the far West Andalusia (Spain today), Barbaric Christians burned the following libraries to the ground:
      Granada Library, Toledo Library, Sevilla Library, Valencia Library and Zaragoza Library. The estimated number of burned/damaged transcripts was 6 million book! Other survived books had been transferred to Europe just to kick start the scientific revolution we live today.

      You can imagine the shear amount of treasure humanity had lost on the intellectual level after bringing the Arab world to its knees by the several invasions. And keep in mind, if Sunnah books were the correct DOT to connect for Arabs decline, you wouldn’t find such unprecedented number of books exist in Arabs Libraries in 11th, 12th and 13th cen. Books contained marvels in Medicine, Biology, Anatomy, Astronomy, Chemistry and Physics.

      And unfortunately, PC’s, Google, Cloud Servers, Micro Chips didn’t exist then in order to store a soft copy! … Such treasure was literally lost!

      After invading the Arabs and the waist of such scientific treasure, the rule of the Middle East went to Turks. The Ottoman Era. Ottomans were soldier/war oriented rule. They added a little to science and civilian development. It’s because of that Ottomans depended on loyalty not professionality, they hired district governors from military backgrounds not civilian scientific one. Therefore, Arabic lands didn’t witness that much of civilian development all the way to 20th cen.

      Narrowing events to the needle whole of Sunnah Books is absolutely unfair inexpert un-objective connection of dots!

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> While you claim that the last prophet is the mightiest, someone may claim that the first prophet deserves this rank. Another may claim that Jesus is the greatest prophet and can support his claim by Jesus’ miraculous birth

      Oops! … You don’t believe that Prophet Muhammad is the greatest and mightiest Prophet among all Prophets sent by Allah?! … You have a serious problem my friend. No wonder! If you are disconnected from Sunnah, you most probably disconnected from the Prophet and you think he’s ordinary Prophet!
      I’m not claiming he’s the mightiest prophet just cuz he’s an Arab or some other reason from my head! … It’s Allah statement in Quran:

      Prophet Muhammad is he mightiest prophet among all for several reasons
      1- Allah sent him the Last, with the Last message to humanity. A message that supersedes all previous messages. This is only makes Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had been given the greatest mission in history of humanity. That’s why he’s the mightiest among prophets.

      2- Allah emphasized the greatness of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) by asking all previous Prophets to believe in Prophet Muhammad message and support him:
      Quran 3:81 “And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], “Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him.” [ Allah ] said, “Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?” They said, “We have acknowledged it.” He said, “Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.”

      3- Allah emphasized that Prophet Muhammad was sent as mercy to humanity.
      4- Allah emphasized that Prophet Muhammad is on a GREAT ethic.

      Again, you’re mixing between terms. All Prophets are equal the magnitude of believe a Muslim shall pay. However, when it goes down to personality and effect, Prophet Muhammad is the greatest with no competition.
      Said by Allah in Quran.
      Said by History being the largest man effects the world until today.
      Said by non-Muslim writers, like the book 100 greatest man in history. Greatest is Muhammad the son of Abdullah!

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> When a teacher teaches you a book, He does NOT replace a 4step process to about 8 or 9 (Ablution).

      Not at all … both the 4 and 8 steps are the same!
      When Quran says “Clean your faces” … Noses are still a part of the face isn’t it? … Beards are still a part of the face isn’t it?
      And when Quran says “Clean your heads” … Ears are still a part of the face isn’t it? …
      There’s no difference between the 4 and 8 steps you mentioned. They are just the same.

      The prophet did it in details and it’s mentioned in Sunnah books and we are following such detail. All the 8 steps are within the 4 parts mentioned in the Quran. You don’t find a Muslim claims cleaning his back for ablution! …

      ———————————————————————————————–

      >> When a teacher teaches a book, He does not Say, A part of the book has become INVALID… especially when he had told you in the begining that NOTHING CHANGES in the book.

      Again! … I didn’t say this or other Sunni but ALLAH Himself!
      Quran 2:106 “We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?”
      So, are you still unhappy from that teacher?!

      ———————————————————————————————–

      At last, my friend, I think we’ve reached to the point of repeating our words, points and ideas. That’s why I prefer to stop here. And let the readers read this awesome discussion. And judge for themselves.

      You fought very hard for your points. You look sincere in putting your case. However, I hope I’ve put my replies to such points in a fashion that each Muslim (or non-Muslim) would read this thread can judge on his own.

      This will be my last contribution in this discussion.
      Please take the honor of putting the last words.

      Allah guides all to the right path.
      My best wishes to you and yours,,,

      Wa Akheru Dawana An Al-Hamdullilah Rab Al-Alameen.

      Mohd Darwish

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  27. nadabodanalkali Avatar
    nadabodanalkali

    Assalamu Alaikum,
    I must say I am deeply happy to stumble across this page. I happen to be a Sunni throughout my life but I must confess that through the years I have to accommodate many doubts about the contents of the various hadiths that I came across. They are more or less contradicting each other and the worst are those that go directly against the Qur’anic revelations. I am not a Qur’anist but their reasoning and references to the Qur’an provide a very clear insight into what the truth is. The Sunnis and others that condemned and called them unbelievers failed woefully to advance any convincing proof of their assertions. All they achieved in doing is to point out how feeble and weak their arguments have been. It is true that Muslims have forgotten the Qur’an in favour of the hadith, it also true that Muslims are now practically worshiping Annabiy Muhammad (SAW) instead of Allah. They are ever ready to quote the hadith and not the Qur’an in whatever they do. In fact, most do not even read the Qur’an but they read only hadiths daily.
    This page stirs an urge in me to go back and study the Qur’an in order to know what Allah requires of me. If one compares Muslims and the Jews and Christians; the later practically based their belief on their own version of hadith (transmitted sayings) instead of the commandments of God Himself. Yet these so called Muslims condemned them for doing so without viewing their actions as similar to that of the Jews and Christians. I don’t know if I may be a Qur’anist but what I am sure of from now on is I will have a different look at hadith and concentrate more on studying the words of God instead. I need someone to help me in this aspect though.

    Nadabo Dan Alkali

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    1. kabamaful Avatar
      kabamaful

      I am happy the discussion inspired you. I am yet to reply to the last post of me and darwish, I am yet to even read it.. Do study the words of God. They will tell you you cannot understand unless you rely on the documents that were compiled by men and have passed through the minds of men. Here is what TABARI said about his compilation :

      Interesting testimony of Tabari :

      “Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us”

      Aside the fact that Tabari was one of the earliest scholar of Sira. You will notice the similarities between his testimony with Luke of the gospels. Yet these muslim argue why the bible has mistakes but turn around 360 degrees to defend the hadith. its sickening!!!!!

      Now.. What more would you want after you read these verses in the Quran :

      The Qur’an says that it is fully detailed (6:114), Complete (6:115), an explanation of all things (12:111, 16:89, 17:12), nothing has been left out of it (6:38), the Best Tafsir (25:33) and the Best Hadith (39:23).

      Muslims believe in Allah’s words. Hypocrites won’t believe it.

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      1. nadabodanalkali Avatar
        nadabodanalkali

        @Kabamaful, the interesting thing is; the more I read your arguments, the more reasonable they seem to me.
        Actually, I spent the last Ramadan just praying for guidance to the right path, the path of those who earn Allah’s favour, not the path of those who earn His anger or wrath. Then I stumbled on a web page that drew my attention to the Qur’an. I must confess that prior to this time, I would never have given any attention to anyone trying to introduce this kind of reasoning to me. But then, I believe truthfully, that God in His infinite mercy showed me the straight path in answer to my humble prayers. This is because I fervently prayed and appealed to God for guidance and then suddenly I came across something I would have never even consider looking into. I was sincere in my prayers so I believe with conviction that God will never lead me astray. He showed me the web page, not that I consciously searched for it, I just stumbled on the page and the contents, the write up and the reasonable arguments appealed to me.
        One can not sincerely appeal to God for help and the result will turn out to be negative. As a result of my sincere request for Allah’s guidance, He mercifully showed it to me. I am trying to remain low key because, I do not know why, Muslims in my area tend to be a lot intolerant of other people’s views. Their idea of belief in God is to attack and possibly kill anyone who is different from them with the wrong notion that they are doing God’s work and they will be admitted into paradise for doing it.
        I want to know, is it proper to shed the blood of anyone who has a different view? I am sorry to say that most Muslims in my area are short tempered and intolerant while on the other hand, the prophet of Islam that I know used to be gentle, tolerant and considerate.
        But in my place, once one says or try to introduce something on this kind of subject, they will immediately start shouting that his blood is lawful (he is a kaffir) even without having the patience to listen to what one has to say.
        In addition, I believe if the Qur’an is given the rightful attention it deserves then the division we are seeing today between Muslims would not have existed. I cringe at the idea that a person should be killed just because someone (who is not an eye witness) reported that someone told him that someone heard the prophet said it should be so. And this is an issue that the Qur’an has pronounced a very clear verdict about. (e.g. the adulterer or the dress code).
        I hope to find a mentor, I will appreciate it if you are willing to be one.

        I thank you.
        Nadabo Dan Alkali

        Liked by 1 person

      2. kabamaful Avatar
        kabamaful

        Good to hear from you. here is my email, lets communicate.

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  28. bakang Avatar
    bakang

    Kabamaful can you give me your e-mail too.

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    1. Veenman Avatar
      Veenman

      I also prayed to God to guide me to the right path because I was depressed by a lot of stuff in Islam (Haith). I stumbled across Quran only muslims and immediately knew it was God answering my prayers. In my area also, they won’t tolerate such thoughts because they will have to close their religious shops and start looking for real jobs.

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  29. Ibrahim Avatar
    Ibrahim

    I am not a Quranist. But later reject all hadiths and Sunna on the basis of understanding the nature of the true message of the Qur’an.
    Let me ask ask some basic questions regarding the second pillar of your religion (itself depends on other pillars) that is salat. To perform it in an acceptable manner, one must face a particular qibla. But my question here is:
    How do you determine the qibla of the Unseen?
    Do you really believe that it is unacceptable to believe in the Unseen without bearing?
    How is this understanding of yours that the One Who cannot have a Son must have a House?

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  30. Abdurrahim Avatar
    Abdurrahim

    It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise, and that is the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

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    1. Abdurrahim Avatar
      Abdurrahim

      Following Ahadith is an essential part of our faith.

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      1. Ferri Avatar
        Ferri

        Following the quran is essential for our way of life

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    2. Veenman Avatar
      Veenman

      Which group will go to paradise? Shia? Sunni? Salafi? Hanafi? Maliki? Hambali? Barelvi?
      I have a feeling they will be Muslims, not belonging to any group.

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  31. john baptist Avatar
    john baptist

    Basically Quranists are the ideal ass lickers of the Tyrants like Sisi, Qadafi, Churchiil, Bush, Hilter, Stalin, Firoun, Nimrod and others. They want to obey the authority to the letter if he is a pagan like sisi or al-saud family or out right un-pretending pagan like Bush or Trump.

    Because if people reject classical scholars and their books, they won’t have a reason to change their state of affairs by over throwing corrupt the core pagan leaders imposed over them imperial (pagan) powers. These are like madkhalis….lol…..They want you to obey the tyrants even if they rape your women. They want to obey them even if they are installed by Europeans…..

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    1. Shazu Avatar
      Shazu

      You’re lying for entertainment reasons, and you shouldn’t because you’ll be held accountable on judgement day for your apathy of actually investigating the Qur’an.

      When was the last time you’ve actually tried to read the Qur’an as a complete scripture?
      It’s called “pan-textual dictionary” where the Classical Arabic can be understood in the instances it occurs in.
      I’ve seen it done, I’ve seen it work, you can investigate if you escaped from the daily grind to do so.
      Here: Quranite.com

      And, the Qur’an actually mandates the believer to uproot tyranny, a timeless tradition found in all generations of prophet’s eras who were up against their societies of characteristic sins and ruling elite who had made it mandated upon the society through propaganda. It’s what Noah did in Atlantis, Lot in Sodom, Jesus in Jerusalem, Moses in Egypt and so on. Their warnings were directed to the rulers first, rather than just the society, understanding the majority of the society meant little in terms of authority, in terms of leverage.
      Here:
      https://www.quranite.com/the-god-protocol-how-to-overthrow-tyranny/

      This aspect of the Qur’an completely pervades the entire text, and it’s why the religion of “traditionalist” brand Islam ignores this and as a result, they keep installing dictators to lead their regimes. As corollary, I make the case your comment is hypocritical because it punches a strawman on the notion you imagine no consequences will be dealt on the day of judgement. Actions matter, investigation is an action whilst talk is cheap.

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  32. Shaik Mustafa Avatar
    Shaik Mustafa

    Read the book true history of Islam and criminals of Islam.

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  33. Mr XzY Avatar
    Mr XzY

    Asalamulaikum.
    There are a lot of good points being made here. And it cab only be a good thing that this toe of discussion is taking place.

    One thing that I will say is that I firmly believe the Quran alone is enough. If there is nothing in the Quran relating to a particular issue, then Allah in his wisdom deemed it unimportant. The Quran itself has enough information on most aspects of life. It’s an open book. Do people honestly think that Allahs revelation is not enough? Does that then mean Allah got it wrong, and we need more scripture to further help us.? I mean really.?
    The Quran brings the ummah together, where as the hadiths cause split in the Muslim ummah, which is why you get many different sects, they don’t disagree with the Quran. So what are their disagreements on.?
    A Lot if the problems in Islam today can be traced back to hadith, which are being used against Islam by anti Islamic groups, and by extremist “islamic” groups. One of such is the the prophet married a child. I do not believe this to be true. And trust me, there are many many hadith that make you wonder about their authenticity. A study of the hadith shows how different they are from the teachings of the Quran.
    People such as Sam Gerrans have dedicated a lot of their time to this very subject.
    Great thinkers and poets like Rumi have a good idea on what true Islam is.
    Islam is peace, Islam is love.
    That is the Islam of the prophets.

    I have an Italian friend called Lala Princhy who is a new Muslim, and he is studying Islam. The confusion for him is the contradiction between hadith and Quran.
    Bukhari and the other hadith collectors were simply humans and the sifting through of the hadith are based on their understanding only, which is why even they couldnt agree which ones are authentic. I’m not for a minute questioning their intentions, only Allah knows that.

    I have one question. Before the hadith, which, from what I’ve read on here, was 250-300 years after the prophet, what did the people have to guide them. Was it Quran only?

    This whole argument needs to be had on a much larger scale, and rather than try to belittle anyone, a mature discussion is what is needed.

    One love.
    Peace.
    Mr XZY

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  34. FirstSonja Avatar
    FirstSonja

    I have noticed you don’t monetize your blog, don’t waste your traffic,
    you can earn additional bucks every month because you’ve got high quality content.
    If you want to know how to make extra bucks,
    search for: Mrdalekjd methods for $$$

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  35. Shaz Avatar
    Shaz

    Peace,
    As a Qur’an-alone Muslim, I’ve found more competing voices on the Qur’an on worldwide forums, than when I was at my echo-chamber of a Masjid. It isn’t true that people I find who genuinely hold fast to the Qur’an live a lazier lifestyle, we’re actually called to pay a higher price with what we with our time here on Earth, and Submission to God is done by deeds and practice of purity, prayer is remembrance of God in everything you do, loud or quiet. The Sunni Muslim family and overall society of anybody who’s called themselves “Muslim” I’ve met, and environment I’ve grown up in is so irresponsible with the Qur’an they’ve been given from the Lord of all Worlds, that it’s not surprising people are still on a witch-hunt to un-do people who actually want to attempt to read the Qur’an as a complete scripture. There’s a term for this in english lexicon, it’s actually known as “indoctrination”, something which performed by a groupthink crowd who’re in un-thinking conformity, or, a cult.

    When was the last time you tried to analyze/translate the Qur’an without using the hadith literature?
    I have seen it done, and I have seen it work, it’s called a pan-textual and hermaneutical dictionary, where the Qur’an uses itself to define key terms in the Classical Arabic.
    Sam Gerrans is completely blacklisted from the mainstream because of his pan-textual translation he’s done, which we can download as a free PDF, here:
    Quranite.com

    Please investigate, fewer than few of anybody who even briefly peruses this comments section will actually want to go ahead and test what they think is reality.

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    1. Vai Avatar
      Vai

      There is also “Quran a Monothiest Translation” available online. Also translated with only the quran in mind.

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  36. Rashad Mohammed Avatar
    Rashad Mohammed

    How does a Quranist pray the Salah?

    Also, Abdullah’s comment is a reasonable one and I have yet to seen a refutation to it.

    Allah mentions in the Qur’an to follow Muhammad. Did he ONLY speak the Qur’an?

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  37. Khairul Anwar bin Muhammad Deen Avatar
    Khairul Anwar bin Muhammad Deen

    Follow advice by rejecting language?? You think arabic language was taught by bukhari stupid hadeeth?? Ahahahahah. What a fool

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    1. Rashad Mohammed Avatar
      Rashad Mohammed

      Huh? Nt an argument. Typical ajeeb statement from one that rejects the Qur’an however.

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  38. Nazzam Ahlul kalam Al Qurani Avatar
    Nazzam Ahlul kalam Al Qurani

    Your ignorance of what Quran alone means is astounding,maybe you should ask a person what following Quran alone means ,
    It simply means we don’t take our religious laws or beliefs from any book other than the book of Allah ,it does not mean we can’t study languages
    Matter fact the Quran itself mentions that colors and languages are signs for men of understanding! 30:22 surah Al rum
    The second point you don’t understand is that we who follow the Quran alone see the pattern in the Quran that it’s only prophets who brings books/writings of guidence ,
    There is not one ayat that commands us to follow any book somebody wrote or a book of compiled narrations as deen .
    The only writing or book Allah has ordered is in the Quran to follow for deen is the Quran and according to you sunnis you allegedly say that hadith were written in the time of rasululah,well then there should be an ayat that tells all the ummah to follow those writings/book and you have no such ayat ! And therefore your interpretation of obey Allah and his messenger means to follow Quran and Hadith books or Sunnah turned into Hadith books is not correct because the messenger of Allah is a human while he’s alive and that’s what it’s talking about but it’s not talking about following hadith books that is subject to various interpretations of different scholars so that at the end of the day you just choose which opinion to follow through your desires ,many times a scholar with doing the fabricated put together science of Hadith will do it about a Hadith and he will grade a Hadith as sahih and then another scholar on the SAME Hadith will do also the science of Hadith and then in his opinion the Hadith is FABRICATED or weak and of course you sunnis dont agree if it’s valid to use a weak Hadith or not ,in any case the point is that -it happens that one scholer will say a hadith is sahih and another will say the same Hadith is FABRICATED,and so we have no clear answer if muhammed trully said it or not and it becomes now a opinion of what you DESIRE to choose ,not to mention this means also somebody is now lying on that prophet because if he didn’t say it then your lying but if he did say it and you say it’s a fabrication then you lying also that way
    However if you actually was in front of muhammed and you asked him if he said a thing or not -then you would be given the answer and then in that there can be NO DIFFERENCE OF OPINION !! this is only one of many reasons that you can’t say obey Allah and obey the messenger means obey the Quran and obey the Hadith books or sunna tuned into hadith books ! So please stop distorting the meaning of the ayat to boost up your sect and
    It is only Allah throughout the Quran that shows us that he is the one that authorizes the books of guidence that the prophets bring .
    It is simply bida and shirk in legislation to follow books that Allah has not authorized and so we cannot of our own authority add such writings to our deen that you call Hadith books and a made up put together science of hadith that is another FURQAN=that which distinguishes between correct and falsehood ) that you put together along side the true FURQAN which is the Quran only !! You sunnis have for along time have been misrepresenting the Quran alone position and have a history of killing us but today you don’t have your despotic khalifas to kill the haqq of true original Islam that the prophet left us with !! The people like Ibrahim an nazzam still lives !!

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  39. Amin Avatar
    Amin

    Dear brother,

    Why does arrogance seep from your writing? You seem to have completely discounted Allah from the equation? Did you not for once stop to think that Allah would not support a slave following the Quran alone? Did you not think once of the second verse of the second surah?
    Do you not know it is only Allah Who Guides?
    None can guide those to whom Allah denies guidance, and none can deter those whom Allah Guideth.
    I follow the Quran, and I pray Allah Guide me and the people. I do not ridicule people who do not follow Islam in the same way I do. I do not think myself as the only one who is following the truth. I try to learn and understand. Because, it is only Allah Who Guides – and Allah Guideth not the arrogant and boastful.

    I pray Allah have Mercy on us all.

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    1. Abdullah al Andalusi Avatar
      Abdullah al Andalusi

      “Do you not know it is only Allah Who Guides?”

      Then why are you commenting, why not leave it for Allah (SWT) alone to guide me? According to your logic, is Allah (SWT) not sufficient enough a guide that He (SWT) needs your words to support Him (SWT)?

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      1. Amin Avatar
        Amin

        Because this is a test from Allah and we are told to urge each other towards the Truth, and urge each other towards perseverence. My words were not to support Allah. Allah needs no support. He is The Almighty, Ever-Present.
        My words were for you my brother. Allah alone is sufficient as Guide. He Guides whomever He Wills, whenever He Wills. those He Guides, none can deter; and those He makes go astray none can bring back. But He misguides none but the arrogant/ rebellious.

        I would urge you to perhaps re-read the Quran as will I. Take care brother.

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